Are all men already saved? (Greek, people, reason, scripture)

[ShanaBrown]

Yes it was answered, Finn. You may not accept the answer, but so be it What then does immortality and incorruptibility mean to you? God bless.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Yes it was answered, Finn. You may not accept the answer, but so be it What then does immortality and incorruptibility mean to you? God bless.

I asked how long eternal life lasts and your answered like this: eternal life=immortality. So, I still have no idea how long you think it lasts, I only know you claimed earlier that it is temporary. It's, you don't need to look for proper universalist reply.

To me eternal life means exactly what it says: eternal life.

[ShanaBrown]

Romans 8:
16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope*
21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.


*hope=elpis=expectation

I asked how long eternal life lasts and your answered like this: eternal life=immortality. So, I still have no idea how long you think it lasts, I only know you claimed earlier that it is temporary. It's, you don't need to look for proper universalist reply.

To me eternal life means exactly what it says: eternal life

Do you know what immortality is and what incorruptiblity is? Aionios life (not eternal life) is the life of knowing God during this age and in the age to come. We receive immortality (eternal life ) when we are raised to be immortal as I have shared before.



Have a good night everyone and a blessed week. I enjoyed the discussion. God bless.

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

I know that is what universalist publications claim, but it is only an invention of men to explain away contradictions.

How long is eternal life? Ten minutes?

Not sure, I know the stoplight I was at this morning on the way to work, took forever to change. It lasted an eternity. I thought I was stuck eternally. The eternal red light.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Do you know what immortality is and what incorruptiblity is? Aionios life (not eternal life) is the life of knowing God during this age and in the age to come. We receive immortality (eternal life ) when we are raised to be immortal as I have shared before.

Believers receive eternal life the moment they are born again. Resurrection of the dead is a different event.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by Phazelwood

Not sure, I know the stoplight I was at this morning on the way to work, took forever to change. It lasted an eternity. I thought I was stuck eternally. The eternal red light.

If that is true, you are still sitting there, and always will be.

Yes, I know you are not sure how long it is, as the whole idea of temporary eternity is an invention of men, and they didn't tell you how long eternity will last.

My red light turned green in about a minute

[legoman]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

2 Thess. 1: 6

since [it is] a righteous thing with God to give back to those troubling you -- trouble,

7and to you who are troubled -- rest with us in the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with messengers of his power,
8in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; 9who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength..." (YLT)

On some words that have been translated as “eternal”, “forever”, “incurable” in the scriptures

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
16:53-55).

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).


An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);

Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).

The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.

God bless.

Finn, take a breath, and re-read what Shana posted above.

It is obvious that English translations of scripture use words like "forever", "everlasting", "incurable" and apply them to concepts that don't mean a literal eternity or forever. ie. "everlasting mountains" that don't last forever, "everlasting priesthood" that doesn't last forever... etc.

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

If that is true, you are still sitting there, and always will be.

Ah, now you see the problem in parts of scripture where someone will read the word everlasting attributed to something that ended.

Thanks for understanding the point.

The definitions of scripture does not mean that an english word means as you say. According to the definitions, the word eternal can be used as the perception of time as I just illustrated. Aionios can mean perpetual, which does not only mean eternal, it can mean continuous throughout a season. Such as a plant that blooms continuously through its life. No one has to know how long that will last to have that understanding.

A persons punishment cannot last forever, if it ends when all is reconciled back to God. Not knowing how long it will be is not a refutation to the idea that something is scripture is temporary.

[legoman]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Since all are in heaven according to them... then Jesus must have died to save us from temporary life in heaven.

Jesus died so that all would be made alive.
He died to take away our sins.
He died to save the world.

I'm not sure why you are making stuff up.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by legoman

Finn, take a breath, and re-read what Shana posted above.

How about you take a breath and read the whole thread, so you can understand the problem of trying to marry NT verses to unrelated OT verses to make a point.