Are all men already saved? (Gomorrah, trinity, Lord, heaven)

[ShanaBrown]

The lie is so engrained that all roads lead to heaven that it is clear they have eyes but yet can not see.

Hi, I don't believe that all roads lead to heaven. I have never stated that. Jesus is the only Way and the scriptures teach that He is the Savior of all men. He is even the Savior of those who rejected Him then and now. God bless.

Psalm 68:

18 You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives;
You have received gifts among men,
Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there. (NAS)

Psalm 90:
3Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

All words translated as eternal meaning forever? Not true, Finn and the scriptures give many examples of this. It isn't about being schooled. It is about accepting what is there. Who schooled the apostle Paul when he spoke of all creation being delivered? God bless.

On some words that have been translated as “eternal”, “forever”, “incurable” in the scriptures

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude
7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom"
16:53-55).

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.
30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until--
Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.
16:53).


An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
"everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered"
Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting"
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings
8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant"
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah
"forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large
fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);

Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.
25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of
Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam"
(Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord
"will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until--
and His church confiscate the "strong man's" booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).

The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master "forever"
(Exodus 21:6), that is,--until--his death.

God bless.


Will we have eternal life? Yes, when we are raised to be immortal, but that is not what the word "aionios" means. God bless.

No Shana. Eternal life does not wait until the resurrection of the body. Resurrection refers to the body only. The soul receives eternal life at the moment of faith in Christ. The only scripture necessary to prove that is Revelation 6:9-11, 7:9-10, and 20:4, all of which show the souls of tribulational martyrs in heaven prior to receiving a resurrection body. They are alive, and they are conscious. Those passages indicate that prior to receiving a resurrection body there is some kind of interim body. I will point out also that Matthew 10:28 clearly shows that the soul survives the death of the body. There are other scriptures which also show that the soul does not 'sleep' until the resurrection of the body.

Just as those who have eternal life, not some cheap cutrate jack-in-the-box patchwork temporary age-during life, but God's very own unending eternal life will spend eternity in the presence of God, those who die without having received Christ as Savior will be eternally separated from God. That is, they will never have a relationship with God and so they will as Daniel 12:2 says, be resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Paul never said that anyone who ends up in the lake of fire will be delivered out of it. He did say that those who do not know God will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power (2 Thess 8-9).

Again, eternal life refers to GOD'S VERY OWN LIFE, which is NOT age-during. It is eternal. For the believer that means that once he has received the imputation of God's eternal life at the moment of faith alone in Christ alone, he has life extending into the endless eternal future. Eternal life not only includes quality of life, but duration of life which is endless. The unbeliever after physical death has endless duration of life, but with no quality of life because he has no relationship with God.

Aionios does not always refer to things eternal. When it refers to God's life, it does. And the opposite of having God's own eternal life is having eternal existance separated from God by way of having no relationship with God. And the place where that eternal existance is experienced is the lake of fire. When the Bible talks about death being abolished, it is referring to physical death. Even unbelievers will be resurrected (Daniel 12:2), and they will be thrown body and soul into the lake of fire (Matt 10:28) which is the Second death (Rev 20:14) which will never be abolished.

Your time on this earth is your only opportunity to use your volition to receive Christ as Savior. This is why you were born - to make a choice. Once you exit this life your eternal future is set. Those who in their time on this earth prior to physical death choose to have an eternal relationship with God through Jesus Christ, will. Those who never receive Christ as Savior prior to physical death will spend the eternal future with no relationship with God and therefore eternally separated from God.

[Heartsong]

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

You are basically saying that you have no idea whether you are right or wrong.

I am? Your comment is rather odd since "not knowing whether I am right or wrong" is not even remotely what I (basically) said.

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by Heartsong

I am? Your comment is rather odd since "not knowing whether I am right or wrong" is not even remotely what I (basically) said.

Originally Posted by Heartsong
Excellent post. Some cannot receive it because their minds are made up to "not hear". If one thinks he/she knows it all already, they cannot learn anything. Nothing is more rebellious than a closed mind with fingers stuffed in the ears. It is in God's time when hardened hearts will be broken. In many cases, there is still no room at the Inn for the birth of the Christ child.

See above where you say that thinking to be right is rebellious and means one is unwilling to learn new things. If you think like that, then you cannot not be sure you are right about what you believe today. It means you accept that you could be completely wrong in your core beliefs.

According to your own words:

- you accept you probably do not know the truth (otherwise you would appear rebellious)
- you keep your mind open to accept another teaching, because otherwise it would mean you have a hardened heart

If you thought UR to be the truth, you would boldly declare it, but obviously you are not sure.

Or are you saying that none of what you say apply to you, it only applies to those who do not agree with your view?

[ShanaBrown]

Hi Mike,

I will have to disagree with you as to what happens when we die. I do not believe that the soul is eternal but that this refers to the person. The soul is the person and when a person dies, the soul (the person) dies. I would wish that it would not be so. Like anyone else, I don't want to think of me lying in a grave or in an urn for ages but then the dead do not know that they are dead. And when we are raised, it will be as if no time has passed. The glory is in the resurrection, when the Lord raises us to life. I do believe that our spirit returns to God upon death, but I believe that it is not conscious. Technically we are with the Lord because we are His but we do not receive immortality until the Lord raises us from the dead. Rev. is full of imagery and visions. But I will share a few scriptures on the subject for now:


Death is a return to dust (Genesis 3:17-19, Psalm 166:2-4, Job 34: 15-16), Ecc. 12:7
Death is the opposite of life (Rev. 20:4-6, 2 Kings 20:1)
Death is described as sleep and rest (because it is temporary) (Psalm 13:3, 2 Thess: 4:13-18, Daniel 12:2, Acts 7:60, John 11:11, 1 Corin. 15: 50-57)
They are silent and do not exercise mental powers (Job 3:11-22, Psalm 115:17, Psalm 6:5, Psalm 146:4)

They are not with Jesus in heaven (John 3:13, Acts: 2:34, 1 Timothy 6:16)

They do not live until the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:12-21, Rev. 20:4-6, John 5:28-29, Rev. 20:11-15)

1 Tim. 6:13-16 tells us that only Christ has immortality. No one else has it right now. And 1 Cor. 15:53 says that “this mortal must put on immortality.”

Faith in Jesus as our Savior does not swallow up death in victory. Believers are said to be dead. (1 Thess. 4:14, 1 Corin. 15:15:51, 53)

When is death swallowed up in victory?
When our Lord Jesus Christ returns and raises the dead and transforms the living. (1 Cor. 15:54-57)
　
If we go consciously to be with the Lord when we die, then there is no need for a resurrection. That Jesus will raise us to life is the glory of the resurrection, and anything else, to me, robs Him of this glory. I know that many disagree, even those who believe in the salvation of all men, but that is what I believe. Maybe another thread would be good for the subject. And it would be good to do a study on what the lake of fire really is. Our God is a consuming fire. God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

Your time on this earth is your only opportunity to use your volition to receive Christ as Savior. This is why you were born - to make a choice. Once you exit this life your eternal future is set. Those who in their time on this earth prior to physical death choose to have an eternal relationship with God through Jesus Christ, will. Those who never receive Christ as Savior prior to physical death will spend the eternal future with no relationship with God and therefore eternally separated from God.

God is in the process of returning all to Himself, even those who have never heard of Jesus Christ who died for them. It is the work of God. And if someone hears Him today, they should come to Him. God is calling out a people for Him today and He will be glorified in them. We should want to walk with Him today but eventually He gets us all. Satan and death do not get to keep any.

Hebrews 2:

7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. (KJV)

God bless.

[modeerf]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Yes. Some who believe in the eventual restoration of all to God do not include satan for various reasons, but Colossians 1 teaches:


15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.*

*literally "the heavens

A question might be, who in the heavens might need to be reconciled to God?


Ephesians 2

1Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
2in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,


Ephesians 6

10As to the rest, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might;
11put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil, 12because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

I don't believe that God is reconciling these rulers and authorities now and I don't dwell on this. Salvation now is for mankind, but evidently there will come a time when God will fill all things.

Ephesians 4:10
7and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ,

8wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --
9and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth? 10he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things -- (YLT)
"


God bless.

Could reconciliation mean a return to the Love of God substance. The creative energy of faith that God utilizes to create and destroy.

[trettep]

Originally Posted by modeerf

He stands at the door and knocks. He is the still small voice within.

Can you make your kids love you (assuming you have kids)?
Would God force someone to love Him, and even if it's possible for Him to do so, would He force love, or could you even force love?

The question is would you force your children away from the street?

[modeerf]

Originally Posted by trettep

The question is would you force your children away from the street?

Some children listen and understand the teachings of their loving parents.
Some children learn through pain and suffering.
Some children get run over after they grow up and leave our care.

A small (young) child needs correction, guidance, and attention. But when they are grown, it is up to them to take the lessons of childhood, and decide whether they will heed the lessons or ignore them, usually at their own peril, if they choose to ignore.

Love cannot be forced, it would cease to be love.

[ShanaBrown]

Modeerf,

Reconcile =apokatallasso=the restoration of a relationship of peace which has been disturbed.


I am wondering if you believe that convincing or persuading someone of something that is best for them, would be wrong and not indicative of love? God bless.