The Trinity Doctrine is False (incarnation, Creator, New Testament, salvation)
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Jesus Christ is indeed Yahweh. So is the Father. So is the Holy Spirit.
Concerning Jesus Christ, He is for instance, called Yahweh in Isaiah 45:24. Compare Isaiah 45:22-24 with Phil 2:10-11. Jesus Christ is in view.
Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God (El), and there is no other. 23] "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24] "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD (Yahweh) are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
Philippians 2:10 'so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11] and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Kurios), to the glory of God the Father.
And as Jesus Christ is called 'El' in Isaiah 45:22, so also He is called 'El' in Isaiah 9:6 'For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (El), Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
By comparing these three passages, it is seen that Jesus Christ is God (El - the singular of Elohim), and that He is Lord (Yahweh).
As for the Holy Spirit, one of His titles is 'the Spirit of the Lord' (Yahweh) as in Isaiah 11:2.
Yahweh - Yhvh
Strong's Concordance
Yhvh: the proper name of the God of Israel
Original Word: יְהֹוָה
Transliteration: Yhvh
Phonetic Spelling: (yeh-ho-vaw')
Short Definition: LORD
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
Jehovah, the Lord
From hayah; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God -- Jehovah, the Lord. Compare Yahh, Yhovih.
All three Persons of the Godhead are identified in the Scriptures as 'Yahweh.'
Mike,
Here again is the double standards of the anti-trinitarians.
They demand ... demand... demand answers only to go on to a different question once answered.
Their days of shadow boxing will come to an end when it's discovered that who God is determines who is saved. They can cry Lord Lord... laying of the hands .... doing miracles in his name...................... but it will be no avail if one doesn't believe in the God who saves.
Jesus Christ is indeed Yahweh. So is the Father. So is the Holy Spirit.
Concerning Jesus Christ, He is for instance, called Yahweh in Isaiah 45:24. Compare Isaiah 45:22-24 with Phil 2:10-11. Jesus Christ is in view.
Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God (El), and there is no other. 23] "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24] "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD (Yahweh) are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
Philippians 2:10 'so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11] and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Kurios), to the glory of God the Father.
And as Jesus Christ is called 'El' in Isaiah 45:22, so also He is called 'El' in Isaiah 9:6 'For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (El), Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
By comparing these three passages, it is seen that Jesus Christ is God (El - the singular of Elohim), and that He is Lord (Yahweh).
As for the Holy Spirit, one of His titles is 'the Spirit of the Lord' (Yahweh) as in Isaiah 11:2.
Yahweh - Yhvh
Strong's Concordance
Yhvh: the proper name of the God of Israel
Original Word: יְהֹוָה
Transliteration: Yhvh
Phonetic Spelling: (yeh-ho-vaw')
Short Definition: LORD
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
Jehovah, the Lord
From hayah; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God -- Jehovah, the Lord. Compare Yahh, Yhovih.
All three Persons of the Godhead are identified in the Scriptures as 'Yahweh.'
Pretty much all what you said is based on the assumption that Jesus preexisted. The reason for such an assumption is that you presupposed that Jesus is God the Son, the second member of the Triune God.
Mike you already know that I don’t believe Jesus preexisted. And I am fully aware of the relatively few ‘bible’ verses that seem to indicate any pre-existence of Jesus.
The ‘bible” explicitly defines the "one God" as "the Father" (1 Tim. 1:5; Cor. 8:4-6; see also Isa 45:5-6; 63:16; 64:8 and etc.).
We read in 1 Cor. 8:6 “to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things…and one Lord Jesus Christ”.
We then read in Isa. 45, “Thus saith the Lord (Yahweh)… I am Yahweh and there is none else, there is no God besides me”.
Eph 4 tells us the same thing “There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all.”
So far as the ‘bible’ is concerned there is one God and that one God is the father . The bible portrays Yahwhe, the one god, as the Father The Father = the one God.
But that is the point. It has been revealed that there is but one Jehovah (God) and that same term was revealed in the Bible.
Father who is God
Son who is God
Holy Spirit who is God
So either you believe "everything about God from the Bible" or you do not believe "everything about God from the Bible".
That is why I harp on this the way I do... for one is only saved by the correct belief in the God who saves.
And that God was revealed in the Bible as the triune God
Suit yourself, twin. As far as I'm concerned, the God that is revealed in the Bible is a Godhead of three physically distinct beings (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) all of whom are "one" in will, purpose, mind and heart. There is nowhere in the Bible where they are said to be "one in substance."
Furthermore, it's not up to you to say who's saved and who's not. I suspect it's going to come as a real surprise to you when God actually saves people you haven't given Him your approval to save.
Shanna, since Jesus Christ is the revealed Person of the Godhead, He represents the Father. He is the expression of the Father's character. In fact, the English word 'character' has its source in the Greek word 'charakter.' He is a perfect reflection of the Father. During His First Advent He expressed who and what the Father is. Jesus is God in the flesh (John 1:1 with 1:14; and 1 Tim 3:16). He is the visible and manifest Person of the triune God.
Excerpt from the Preceptaustin website.
Exact representation (5481) (charakter from charasso = to engrave and source of our English word character which describes one of the attributes or features that make up and distinguish an individual) was used in classical Greek of an engraver who mints coins or an engraving tool, a die, a stamp, a branding iron, a mark engraved, an impress or a stamp on coins and seals. Later it came to mean the impression itself, usually engraved, cut in, or stamped on in the form of a character, a letter, a mark or a sign. This impression or mark with its particular features was considered to be the exact representation of the object whose image it bore.
Charakter is a die made by an impress, like on a signet ring, the impression being identical although they are two separate entities. As a figure of speech charakter described a distinctive mark "impressed" on a person, by which he is distinguished from others. It is thus a characteristic of that person and was a Greek idiom for a person’s features. The author is saying that whatever the Divine essence is, Jesus is the perfect expression and thus affirms the deity of Jesus Christ and alludes to the the plurality of God. Jesus is distinct from God the Father and yet identical with Him. Charakter conveys the idea of exact correspondence as when Jesus said that
"He who has seen Me has seen the Father" (Jn 14:9)
He who had seen Jesus had seen the Father because Jesus is the exact representation, the exact expression of the Father's attributes, nature, etc so that all that God is, Jesus is, and yet two distinct Persons of the Godhood. Jesus is all that God is, not has been given what He is! God hasn't given Jesus something. He already is! Paul concurs that Jesus "is the image of the invisible God" (see note Col 1:15) Hebrews 1:3
Notice the first sentence in the last paragraph.
'He who had seen Jesus had seen the Father because Jesus is the exact representation, the exact expression of the Father's attributes, nature, etc so that all that God is, Jesus is, and yet two distinct Persons of the Godhood.'
The phrase 'exact expression' is a perfect translation which describes Jesus' representation of the Father.
'He who had seen Jesus had seen the Father because Jesus is the exact representation, the exact expression of the Father's attributes, nature, etc so that all that God is, Jesus is, and yet two distinct Persons of the Godhood.'
Mike555, I agree that Jesus is the exact representation or expression (meaning image) of the Father. I don't disagree with this, but an image or a representation is not the original. The original is first, and the representation follows and so yes, Jesus reflects the Father to us, but the Father is the source and so this tells me that He is Supreme. An image is a likeness, a representation and Jesus, as the Son, the Word made flesh, reflects who the Father is but the Father is the original. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-26-2012 at 04:36 PM..
"God has no God. He is the Supreme. His deity would be destroyed should He acknowledge a superior. No one who has a God is absolute Deity. The Son is God in a restricted, relative sense. His orphan cry, "My God, My God, why didst Thou abandon Me?" (Matt.27:46) could never have come from the God and Father He implored. The Supreme cannot appeal to a higher Power. He could not be left helpless to His enemies by another. He could not suffer the death that followed this heartbroken cry, for He is the life of all that lives. On Golgotha we see God and His Christ in keenest contrast.
Absolute Deity cannot acknowledge or appeal to another God. Yet this is the crowning glory of Christ. He has a God. .. In His intercourse with His disciples our Lord continually referred to God as Another, not Himself. But He not only established a relationship between God and His disciples, and associated Himself with them in it, but specifically spoke of One Who was His Arbiter, Whom He invoked in prayer, Whom He acclaimed in thanksgiving. We need not be surprised that a glimpse of this relationship should be seldom given. Rather we should be astonished that the veil was ever lifted, so that we may enter into the intimacies of the fellowship between the Father and His Beloved.
The fullest display of Christ's dependence on His God and Father is found in His prayer for the disciples (John 17). He takes a place utterly impossible to Deity in submitting Himself and all His work to His Father. He does not for a moment assume the place of equality. His authority is a gift (17:2). All whom He saves are given Him (17:2). He is carrying out a commission (17:3). He does not glorify Himself, but God (17:4). He does a work, not His own (17:4), and so on, to the end. It is by no means the consultation of two gods "equal in power and glory." It is the humble, dependent petition of a Son and a Servant to One Who is surpassingly supreme.
All is through Christ
That great rubric which authoritatively reveals the status of God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, defines their relation to the universe by means of two connectives. All is out of God.All is through our Lord (1 Cor.8:6). The contrast here is sharp and clear. It is the key to the part played by Christ in the course of the eons. Nothing originates out of Him or consummates into Him, though He is the Origin and the Consummation. All comes through Him, from the beginning to the end. He is the Channel, not the Source or the Object of all things. It is a proof of divine inspiration that the Scriptures always maintain this point. It is true of Christ in all of His assumptions.
Our common version, however, in such a matter as this, proves that it is not inspired. In the first chapter of John's account, we read that "All things were made by Him" (3), and again, " the world was made by Him" (10). In both cases it should be through. The Logos, or Word, of God was the means of making all, not the efficient first Cause of all. Christ is never set forth as the absolute Source. Such a role is absolutely destructive of His mission as Mediator..." A.E. Knoch
I disagree with this statement. Jesus knew that the Father was the source and that the Father had given Him life. He knew where He came from, who sent Him, and where He was going. He was totally dependent on the Father and acknowledged this.
Jesus said to His disciples:
John 5: 25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is [f]the Son of Man
John 6. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
John 17: 25 “These things I have spoken to you in [f]figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in [g]figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father. 28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.”
John 17
1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to [a]all whom You have given Him, He may give *eternal life. 3 This is *eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. 6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may [f]believe that You sent Me.
[b]Matthew: 28:17 "When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."
*eternal=aionios
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-26-2012 at 05:39 PM..
Shanna, I told you in the next sentence that the different functions of the Persons of the Trinity is seen throughout the Scriptures. I made a point of mentioning that.
I have further shown that the Three Persons of the Godhead are co-equal and that it is impossible for them not to be. The only subjugation is within the plan of salvation for man in which Jesus was willing to temporarily set aside the independant use of His deity and take the form of a man and humble Himself to the point of death on the cross as mentioned in Phil 2:5-8.
That Jesus Christ is equal with the Father is seen in Phil 2:5-8 which an exegesis of the passage shows
Hi Mike, I have also shown to you that the scriptures reveal that the Father is greater than the Son and that the Father is the source. The Father gave Jesus life. Jesus is the exact image or representation of the invisible God. He is God's representative and speaks on behalf of the Father, but He is not all that the Father is. He came forth from the Father, reveals the Father to us, is totally dependent on the Father, points to the Father, and will be subject to the Father (1 Cor. 15). All that He did was for the glory of the Father and the Father glorified Him. God bless.
John 14:28
"28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
The Father was greater than Jesus before He came to earth, when Jesus walked the earth and He is greater than Him, as they are in heaven now, and He will be greater than Jesus when Jesus delivers the kingdom up to Him and is subject to Him. God bless.
1 Corinthians 15:
And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,
21for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead,
22for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
24then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --
25for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --
26the last enemy is done away -- death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him, 28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all. (YLT)
"
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-26-2012 at 06:44 PM..
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