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Now concerning the subordination which exists within the Godhead, that is with regard to the pre-determined plan of God in which each of the Three Persons agreed to perform certain functions and roles in that plan.
Quote:
Where is this in the scriptures? God bless.The reference to the pre-determined plan of God is found in Acts 2:23
The passage in Acts 2:23 says nothing, Mike, about 3 members of a Trinity agreeing to perform certain functions and roles. It simply says that the Man, Jesus, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, was nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put to death.
I believe that God, the Father, planned all from the beginning and that Jesus the Word, the Logos, His Son did the will of the Father. There was no consulation or discussion. Jesus always did the will of the Father. He came to do the Father's will. He did not speak of His own initiative but spoke whatever the Father told Him. And He reveals the One and Only True God to us, was sent by the Father on a mission, accomplished the mission, returned to the Father and always gave the glory to the Father.
Back tomorrow, Lord willing.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-25-2012 at 09:37 PM..
Hi Mike, in researching this a little, I found out that the word "charakter" which is the word used in the passage from Hebrews 1 literally means an image, a likeness, a reproduction.
It has been translated as "representation" and also as "expression" as you shared but this "expression" literally refers to an image.
See below:
1) the instrument used for engraving or carving
2) the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
a) a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:28) or stamped on, an impression
b) the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile
a representation means: 1. The act of representing or the state of being represented. 2. Something that represents, as: a. An image or likeness of something. b. An account or statement, as of facts (American Heritage dictionary)
***********************
<LI class="sense sense-type-core scrollerBlock">1the action of speaking or acting on behalf of someone or the state of being so represented: you may qualify for free legal representation
2the description or portrayal of someone or something in a particular way: the representation of women in newspapers
the depiction of someone or something in a work of art: Picasso is striving for some absolute representation of reality
[count noun] a picture, model, or other depiction of someone or something: a striking representation of a vase of flowers (Oxford)
: one that represents: as a: an artistic likeness or image (Merriam Webster)
So, what I am seeing is that Jesus is the exact image, representation of the nature of the invisible God, the Father. The Father is the source, and Jesus is His representation. The Father, then is the original and He is greater because all is out of Him, even the Logos, the Word made flesh.
Even it if is translated as the "exact expression" , this literally means, "the exact image" according to the definition of the word, charakter. (the word used in the Hebrew passage)
God bless.
Shanna, since Jesus Christ is the revealed Person of the Godhead, He represents the Father. He is the expression of the Father's character. In fact, the English word 'character' has its source in the Greek word 'charakter.' He is a perfect reflection of the Father. During His First Advent He expressed who and what the Father is. Jesus is God in the flesh (John 1:1 with 1:14; and 1 Tim 3:16). He is the visible and manifest Person of the triune God.
Excerpt from the Preceptaustin website.
Exact representation (5481) (charakter from charasso = to engrave and source of our English word character which describes one of the attributes or features that make up and distinguish an individual) was used in classical Greek of an engraver who mints coins or an engraving tool, a die, a stamp, a branding iron, a mark engraved, an impress or a stamp on coins and seals. Later it came to mean the impression itself, usually engraved, cut in, or stamped on in the form of a character, a letter, a mark or a sign. This impression or mark with its particular features was considered to be the exact representation of the object whose image it bore.
Charakter is a die made by an impress, like on a signet ring, the impression being identical although they are two separate entities. As a figure of speech charakter described a distinctive mark "impressed" on a person, by which he is distinguished from others. It is thus a characteristic of that person and was a Greek idiom for a person’s features. The author is saying that whatever the Divine essence is, Jesus is the perfect expression and thus affirms the deity of Jesus Christ and alludes to the the plurality of God. Jesus is distinct from God the Father and yet identical with Him. Charakter conveys the idea of exact correspondence as when Jesus said that
"He who has seen Me has seen the Father" (Jn 14:9)
He who had seen Jesus had seen the Father because Jesus is the exact representation, the exact expression of the Father's attributes, nature, etc so that all that God is, Jesus is, and yet two distinct Persons of the Godhood. Jesus is all that God is, not has been given what He is! God hasn't given Jesus something. He already is! Paul concurs that Jesus "is the image of the invisible God" (see note Col 1:15) Hebrews 1:3
Notice the first sentence in the last paragraph.
'He who had seen Jesus had seen the Father because Jesus is the exact representation, the exact expression of the Father's attributes, nature, etc so that all that God is, Jesus is, and yet two distinct Persons of the Godhood.'
The phrase 'exact expression' is a perfect translation which describes Jesus' representation of the Father.
The passage in Acts 2:23 says nothing, Mike, about 3 members of a Trinity agreeing to perform certain functions and roles. It simply says that the Man, Jesus, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, was nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put to death.
I believe that God, the Father, planned all from the beginning and that Jesus the Word, the Logos, His Son did the will of the Father. There was no consulation or discussion. Jesus always did the will of the Father. He came to do the Father's will. He did not speak of His own initiative but spoke whatever the Father told Him. And He reveals the One and Only True God to us, was sent by the Father on a mission, accomplished the mission, returned to the Father and always gave the glory to the Father.
Back tomorrow, Lord willing.
God bless.
Shanna, I told you in the next sentence that the different functions of the Persons of the Trinity is seen throughout the Scriptures. I made a point of mentioning that.
I have further shown that the Three Persons of the Godhead are co-equal and that it is impossible for them not to be. The only subjugation is within the plan of salvation for man in which Jesus was willing to temporarily set aside the independant use of His deity and take the form of a man and humble Himself to the point of death on the cross as mentioned in Phil 2:5-8.
That Jesus Christ is equal with the Father is seen in Phil 2:5-8 which an exegesis of the passage shows ---> Philippians 2:5-7 Commentary
Some people are using 1 Cor 8:6 to try to say that only the Father is God. 'yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Now that passage says there is one God, the Father. But it also says 'and one Lord, Jesus Christ. But notice what Deut 6:4 says.
Deut 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!'
The Lord is our God and the LORD is one.
God is the LORD (Deut 6:4).
Jesus is the Lord (1 Cor 8:6).
The Lord is echad - a United One. Three Persons who are united as One by their essence - nature.
It seems that your line of reasoning is highly dependent on an English translation rather than the words that were actually translated. However, you should be aware of that it was ‘god’ who made Jesus “Lord”. Acts 2:36 says: “God has made this Jesus…both Lord and Messiah.” Here’s yet another argument against the Trinity.
It seems that your line of reasoning is highly dependent on an English translation rather than the words that were actually translated. However, you should be aware of that it was ‘god’ who made Jesus “Lord”. Acts 2:36 says: “God has made this Jesus…both Lord and Messiah.” Here’s yet another argument against the Trinity.
To the contrary.
Post #108 Reference to Greek word Hupostasis
Post #110 Reference to Hebrew word Echad.
Post #116 Reference to Hebrews 1:3 from the Biblos Greek/English Interlinear Bible.
Post #123 Exegesis of Hebrews 1:3 at the Preceptaustin website with the intent of showing the meaning of the Greek word Charakter.
Post #124 Exegesis of Phil 2:5-7 also at the Preceptaustin website.
Please make an effort to actually read my posts so as not to misrepresent me.
Regarding Acts 2:36 ''Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ - this Jesus whom you crucified.''
Acts 2:36 is the conclusion of Peter's argument from Acts 2:29 onward and which refers back to Psalms 110:1-7 which speaks of God (The Father) giving dominion to Jesus Christ as the King. This is part of the pre-determined plan of God as is Christ's Messiahship.
The passage in no way argues against the Trinity. As a matter of fact, Jesus in Matthew 22:43-45 refers back to Psalm 110:1 which is quoted in Acts 2:34. In Matt 22:43-45 Jesus asks the Pharisees, ''...Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying, 'The LORD SAID TO MY LORD, ''SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT THINE ENEMIES BENEATH THY FEET'' '? 45] ''If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?''
Jesus asked the Pharisee's why David ascribed deity to the Messiah if the Messiah was merely a human son of David.
Regarding Acts 2:36, The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Facility makes the following comment on p. 359.
'Here is the conclusion of Peter's argument. The noun Lord, referring to Christ, probably is a reference to Yahweh. The same word kyrios is used of God in verses 21, 34, and 39 (cf. Phil 2:9). This is a strong affirmation of Christ's deity.'
Now in the pre-determined plan of God, Jesus was appointed by the Father to be the King and the Messiah.
Post #116 Reference to Hebrews 1:3 from the Biblos Greek/English Interlinear Bible.
Post #123 Exegesis of Hebrews 1:3 at the Preceptaustin website with the intent of showing the meaning of the Greek word Charakter.
Post #124 Exegesis of Phil 2:5-7 also at the Preceptaustin website.
Please make an effort to actually read my posts so as not to misrepresent me.
Regarding Acts 2:36 ''Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ - this Jesus whom you crucified.''
Acts 2:36 is the conclusion of Peter's argument from Acts 2:29 onward and which refers back to Psalms 110:1-7 which speaks of God (The Father) giving dominion to Jesus Christ as the King. This is part of the pre-determined plan of God as is Christ's Messiahship.
The passage in no way argues against the Trinity. As a matter of fact, Jesus in Matthew 22:43-45 refers back to Psalm 110:1 which is quoted in Acts 2:34. In Matt 22:43-45 Jesus asks the Pharisees, ''...Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying, 'The LORD SAID TO MY LORD, ''SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT THINE ENEMIES BENEATH THY FEET'' '? 45] ''If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?''
Jesus asked the Pharisee's why David ascribed deity to the Messiah if the Messiah was merely a human son of David.
Regarding Acts 2:36, The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Facility makes the following comment on p. 359.
'Here is the conclusion of Peter's argument. The noun Lord, referring to Christ, probably is a reference to Yahweh. The same word kyrios is used of God in verses 21, 34, and 39 (cf. Phil 2:9). This is a strong affirmation of Christ's deity.'
Now in the pre-determined plan of God, Jesus was appointed by the Father to be the King and the Messiah.
Echad and hupostasis are not in my radar. I’m referring to the word “lord”. Deu 6:4 actually reads The LORD [Heb: Yahweh] our God is one LORD [Heb: Yahweh]. I think we would all agree that Jesus is not Yahweh. Deu 6:4 is referring to that Yahweh God of Israel, “the Father", who is the one and only God. So the “lord” in 1 Cor 8:6 is not really a cross reference to the “LORD” in Deu 6:4. “Lord” in Deu 6:4 and 1Co 8:6 are used in different ways according to context.
Last edited by kids in america_; 01-26-2012 at 04:24 AM..
I think we would all agree that Jesus is not Yahweh.
Actually, we wouldn't. I believe that the man Jesus Christ of the New Testament was known as Jehovah prior to His birth in Bethlehem. Jehovah is the Lord God who is spoken of throughout the Old Testament; He's the same individual known as Jesus Christ in the New Testament. But, He is not the same individual as His Father. I think the reason why so many Old and New Testament scriptures use the exact same (or very similar) words to describe Him is because they are referring to the same individual, not because they are referring to two different individuals who are somehow both "the same substance." The best example is "I AM." It's found in both testaments and is referring to the same individual (Jehovah/Jesus) in both instances. Yeah... I know I'm in the minority here who sees it that way.
Actually, we wouldn't. I believe that the man Jesus Christ of the New Testament was known as Jehovah prior to His birth in Bethlehem. Jehovah is the Lord God who is spoken of throughout the Old Testament; He's the same individual known as Jesus Christ in the New Testament. But, He is not the same individual as His Father. I think the reason why so many Old and New Testament scriptures use the exact same (or very similar) words to describe Him is because they are referring to the same individual, not because they are referring to two different individuals who are somehow both "the same substance." The best example is "I AM." It's found in both testaments and is referring to the same individual (Jehovah/Jesus) in both instances. Yeah... I know I'm in the minority here who sees it that way.
No ... you are not the minority. Most people incorrectly believe who God is. You're just following incorrect conclusions to keep the source of those conclusions as true.
There is no trinitarian who says that Jesus is the Father ect because that isn't what is revealed. What is revealed in the Bible is:
the Father is God
the Son is God .... thus the same God
that Jesus is both human and God ... thus the same God
the Holy Spirit is God ..... thus the same God
1+1+1= 1 ............ and that is the God who saves.
Last edited by twin.spin; 01-26-2012 at 10:15 AM..
Jesus is the external expression of God into creation. JN 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Jesus is the name given among men to be saved because in Him is the Father. As God among us, His external makeup is as a Son.
When we address Jesus we are actually talking to the Father within Him. JN 14:9 Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have not not known Me, Philip? he that has seen Me has seen the Father; and how do you then, Show us the Father? Because God came to earth as a Son, it is His decree that only by what the Son did can man be saved. If we do not honor what God as the Son did we do not honor God and He will not hear us because they are one in Spirit and in mission. The only difference was that God was in the flesh on the earth while at the same time God by Spirit through out all.
IS 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government [of the Kingdom] shall be upon his shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. The manifestation of God into His creation is as a Son, a distinct person in the perfect image of God and able to relate back to God as Father in the love union of what the trinity means. As the Son loves the Father via the Holy Spirit so also in similar fashion we are sons relating back to the Farther because we are adopted by the Spirit of Adoption [one of the seven ministries of the Spirit] into that relationship of the trinity of love. The trinity of love is the lover [God the Father], the beloved [Jesus the Son and all sons/daughters by the agency of love who is the Holy Spirit.
ROM 8:15 "For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but you have received the Spirit of Adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." The seven ministries of the one Spirit are called the Seven Spirits in Book Revelation. They are the Spirit of Grace, the Spirit of Supplication, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Holiness, the Spirit of Life, the Spirit of Adoption and the culmination of the work of Christ is the Spirit of Glory [the beauty of His character]. As Jesus is the light of the world, His ministry is of a seven fold nature like natural light is to the seven colors of the rainbow. The outward manifestation of God as the Son is all through creation. REV 4:3 And He that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardius stone [ blood red as in the atonement ]: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. The green of the emerald denotes Holiness and it is the stone that represents the tribe of Judah from which Christ came. It was on the Breastplate of the O.T. Priest.
How perfectly the Word is interwoven and by the Spirit creates such a tapestry of beauty for the spirit and mind of man who has ears to hear and eyes to see.
REV 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from Him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the Seven Spirits which are before his throne;"
Echad and hupostasis are not in my radar. I’m referring to the word “lord”. Deu 6:4 actually reads The LORD [Heb: Yahweh] our God is one LORD [Heb: Yahweh]. I think we would all agree that Jesus is not Yahweh. Deu 6:4 is referring to that Yahweh God of Israel, “the Father", who is the one and only God. So the “lord” in 1 Cor 8:6 is not really a cross reference to the “LORD” in Deu 6:4. “Lord” in Deu 6:4 and 1Co 8:6 are used in different ways according to context.
Jesus Christ is indeed Yahweh. So is the Father. So is the Holy Spirit.
Concerning Jesus Christ, He is for instance, called Yahweh in Isaiah 45:24. Compare Isaiah 45:22-24 with Phil 2:10-11. Jesus Christ is in view.
Isaiah 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God (El), and there is no other. 23] "I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. 24] "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD (Yahweh) are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
Philippians 2:10 'so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11] and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Kurios), to the glory of God the Father.
And as Jesus Christ is called 'El' in Isaiah 45:22, so also He is called 'El' in Isaiah 9:6 'For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (El), Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
By comparing these three passages, it is seen that Jesus Christ is God (El - the singular of Elohim), and that He is Lord (Yahweh).
As for the Holy Spirit, one of His titles is 'the Spirit of the Lord' (Yahweh) as in Isaiah 11:2.
Yahweh - Yhvh
Strong's Concordance
Yhvh: the proper name of the God of Israel
Original Word: יְהֹוָה
Transliteration: Yhvh
Phonetic Spelling: (yeh-ho-vaw')
Short Definition: LORD
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
Jehovah, the Lord
From hayah; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God -- Jehovah, the Lord. Compare Yahh, Yhovih.
All three Persons of the Godhead are identified in the Scriptures as 'Yahweh.'
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I believe that the man Jesus Christ of the New Testament was known as Jehovah prior to His birth in Bethlehem. Jehovah is the Lord God who is spoken of throughout the Old Testament; He's the same individual known as Jesus Christ in the New Testament. But, He is not the same individual as His Father. I think the reason why so many Old and New Testament scriptures use the exact same (or very similar) words to describe Him is because they are referring to the same individual, not because they are referring to two different individuals who are somehow both "the same substance." The best example is "I AM." It's found in both testaments and is referring to the same individual (Jehovah/Jesus) in both instances. Yeah... I know I'm in the minority here who sees it that way.