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The answer to the OP depend greatly how "church" is defined.
If the definition of church is the building and hierarchy then church started around Constantine's time.
If church is by the definition of Jesus then church ended around Constantine's time.
That one thread is interesting, but I think it's options were too limited to a simple yes/no which maybe made it more confrontational than is necessary. Hopefully this will be a bit less so.
I'll add some links to explain the difference between Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy as well as some other terms.
I allowed for voting for more than one as at least some historians would say Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Oriental Orthodoxy are equally old. As for Anglicans I know of "High Anglicans" who feel they are the development of Early English Christianity and that the others diverged from Early Christianity in unjustified ways.
I voted 'other' because I go by what the Scriptures tell us not by what 'man' says.
First the word 'church' is ekklesia which means called out ones. It's not a brick/wooden building with a steeple and a name on the front door.
And no offense to those of you who say the called out ones began at Pentecost, but to say there were no called out ones in the OT is simply an arrogant statement. Surely, Abraham, Moses, David, the prophets, etc etc belonged to God's group of called out ppl!!
And it also contradicts the Scritpures.
First the 'church,' the called out ones were referred to in the OT as the congregation/assembly.
But most of all the Scriptures tell us Moses belonged to the 'church:'
Ac 7:38 This is he, [Moses] that was in the church [ekklesia]in the *wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, [Sinai] and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
*wilderness the same word as used in John 2:14 which speaks of Moses lifing up the brass serpent in the wilderness.
I voted 'other' because I go by what the Scriptures tell us not by what 'man' says.
First the word 'church' is ekklesia which means called out ones. It's not a brick/wooden building with a steeple and a name on the front door.
And no offense to those of you who say the called out ones began at Pentecost, but to say there were no called out ones in the OT is simply an arrogant statement. Surely, Abraham, Moses, David, the prophets, etc etc belonged to God's group of called out ppl!!
And it also contradicts the Scritpures.
First the 'church,' the called out ones were referred to in the OT as the congregation/assembly.
But most of all the Scriptures tell us Moses belonged to the 'church:'
Ac 7:38 This is he, [Moses] that was in the church [ekklesia]in the *wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, [Sinai] and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
*wilderness the same word as used in John 2:14 which speaks of Moses lifing up the brass serpent in the wilderness.
The answer to the OP depend greatly how "church" is defined.
If the definition of church is the building and hierarchy then church started around Constantine's time.
If church is by the definition of Jesus then church ended around Constantine's time.
The word church has both meanings: A building to worship or the congregation that worships. The catholic Church covers both meanings.
The word church has both meanings: A building to worship or the congregation that worships. The catholic Church covers both meanings.
The word church, as used in the Scriptures, does not mean a building. It means an assemblyof called out ones. It means believers and most certainly these believers didn't just first come into being when the assembly of Rome came into being.
"They" started/began way back in the OT and Christ just added to His church, His ekklesia, His called out ones with NT believers.
The word assembly and ekklesia are interchangeable in the Scriptures as here:
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.
The word church, as used in the Scriptures, does not mean a building. It means an assemblyof called out ones. It means believers and most certainly these believers didn't just first come into being when the assembly of Rome came into being.
"They" started/began way back in the OT and Christ just added to His church, His ekklesia, His called out ones with NT believers.
The word assembly and ekklesia are interchangeable in the Scriptures as here:
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.
"The Second Vatican Council, in Lumen Gentium, stated the Church is the people of God. Protestants see this as pretty much it. They understand church as a name for a structure-less body of people who follow Christ and believe in his divinity as the second Person of the Holy Trinity, revealed in the Bible alone. Catholics, on the other hand, understand the Church also in terms of a hierarchical structure, with definite authority given to it by Jesus in the person of Peter and therefore to his successors. We see in Scripture much evidence that Jesus gave personal attention to the apostles, preparing them to minister after he was no longer with them. “Anyone who listens to you listens to me; anyone who rejects you rejects me, and those who reject me reject the one who sent me” (Lk 10:16). There was no reason for him to prepare them for only their lifetime. The early Church Fathers verify this. The early Church does not fall into the Protestant vision of a structure-less, sacrament-less body of believers. It was hierarchically structured and sacramental. The canon of the New Testament, on which Protestants base all their faith, is the product of this Church."
From Catholic answers:
Interestingly; if the catholic Church did not have a established hierarchy no one would be in charge. No one available to put the books of the NT together for mankind.
Isn't it interesting that "Bible Christians" always begin with the assumption that Catholics don't read the scriptures and are ignorant? How charitable.
Quote:
The apostles called the church the "church of God," "church of Christ." Catholic is not found in the scriptures,
Yes and no, Katie. Take a look:
“Catholic Church” in the Bible
Many people argue that the Catholic Church is not the Church founded by Jesus Christ beginning with Peter and the Apostles. One argument often made is that the phrase “Catholic Church” does not appear within the pages of Scripture.
Aside from the fact that this argument is weak since the words “trinity” and “Bible” are not contained in Holy Writ either, is it really true that the Catholic Church is not named in the Bible? Well, take a look at the following verse from the Acts of the Apostles, and decide for yourself:
Acts 9:31 (Greek)
ἡ μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ᾽ὁλης της ιουδαιας και γαλιλαιας και σαμαρειας ειχεν ειρηνην οικοδομουμενη και πορευομενη τω φοβω του κυριου, και τη παρακλησει του ἁγιου πνευματος επληθυνοντο.
Act 9:31 (Transliteration)
aye men oon ekklaysiaye kath olays tays ioodayeas kaye galilayeas kaye samarayas aycon ayraynayn oikodomoomenaye kaye poryoomenaye tow fobow too kurioo kaye tay paraklaysay too agioo pnyoomatos eplaythunonto (http://www.russ.org/gtb/luke.html#a9)
Acts 9:31
So the Church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.
From this text, we can see the Greek word “kath olays” which is rendered “Catholic” in modern English and the word “ekklaysiaye” which becomes “ecclesia” in English and is commonly translated as “church”.
εκκλησια καθ᾽ὁλης = ekklaysiaye kath olays = “the church throughout all” = Catholic Church.
Quote:
and Ignatius who coined the term was not an inspired writer. Keep in mind that Ignatius wrote some 70 odd years after the church of Christ had been established.
I've already addressed the fact that Ignatius did NOT coin the term in another thread...but for the sake of the lurkers here, I'll review the matter again.
Origin of the name “Catholic Church’
Originally Christians weren’t even called Christians. They were called "disciples" (i.e., "students") of Jesus of Nazareth. Later, in the city of Antioch, they received the name "Christians" (Acts 11:26). This probably happened in the A.D. 30s. This term spread very quickly—probably to the chagrin of those Jewish individuals who did not wish to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah (Christ).
Ultimately, however, different groups began to break off from the Christian community, falling into either heresy or schism. These groups still wished to represent themselves as Christian—and many of them were, retaining valid baptism and a profession of faith in Christ. Consequently, a new word was needed to distinguish the Christians belonging to the Church that Christ founded from those belonging to the churches that had split off from it.
The term that was picked was kataholos, which means according to the whole or universal in Greek. The thought was apparently that these were Christians who believed and practiced according to what body of Christians as a whole did, in contrast to what some particular group thought or did. Over the course of time, kataholos came to be represented by the parallel English word "Catholic."
Ignatius of Antioch did not introduce kataholos. However, his letters contain the earliest known uses of it. It may well have been used in other Christian writings prior to this, but we have simply lost them. It certainly was in general use in speech before this point, because Ignatius writes in such a way that he already expects his readers to know this term and what it means. He also uses the term in more than one of his letters, meaning that he expects people in more than one place to know the term.
This indicates that in his day—at the beginning of the second century (circa A.D. 107)—the term was already in widespread use. For it to be used in such a broad manner, it would have required some time to pass into currency in the Christian community, meaning that the term probably was coined sometime in the second half of the first century. We don’t know who first used it, but it was a suitable description of the Church Christ founded and so was already in general use by the time Ignatius wrote.
Quote:
The job of the episcopate was to teach and preserve the apostle's doctrine. It wasn't to make new laws and change what was first instituted by Christ and given to the apostles.
If you could provide some evidence that the Catholic Church has ever changed (contradicted) the faith that was handed on from the Apostles, I would be most interested to review it.
Quote:
If Ignatius was renaming the church, and I don't believe he was, then he was doing it by his own authority.
As has been said, Ignatius simply used the term "Catholic Church" because it was already in widespread usage and known to his audience.
Quote:
As for me, I'll stick with the apostle's doctrine.
Great! All of it? What about the doctrine of transubstantiation - clearly taught by Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:24-26? Or that of the forgiveness of sins confessed to a priest? That's clearly taught by Paul here:
2 Corinthians 2:10
10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; (KJV)
And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ. (Douay Rheims)
Quote:
Hope this helps you to see that the Bible is our sole authority, and not the doctrines and traditions of the RCC.
Yes, the Bible is YOUR sole authority, Katie...it's just not the sole authority established by Jesus for His Church on earth.
But, since you read your Bible so much more than us ignorant Catholics, would you mind providing a verse which teaches that the Bible Alone is the sole rule of faith for the believer?
After all, shouldn't the doctrine of sola scriptura itself be found in scripture?
Isn't it interesting that "Bible Christians" always begin with the assumption that Catholics don't read the scriptures and are ignorant? How charitable.
Yes and no, Katie. Take a look:
“Catholic Church” in the Bible
Many people argue that the Catholic Church is not the Church founded by Jesus Christ beginning with Peter and the Apostles. One argument often made is that the phrase “Catholic Church” does not appear within the pages of Scripture.
Aside from the fact that this argument is weak since the words “trinity” and “Bible” are not contained in Holy Writ either, is it really true that the Catholic Church is not named in the Bible? Well, take a look at the following verse from the Acts of the Apostles, and decide for yourself:
Acts 9:31 (Greek)
ἡ μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ᾽ὁλης της ιουδαιας και γαλιλαιας και σαμαρειας ειχεν ειρηνην οικοδομουμενη και πορευομενη τω φοβω του κυριου, και τη παρακλησει του ἁγιου πνευματος επληθυνοντο.
Act 9:31 (Transliteration)
aye men oon ekklaysiaye kath olays tays ioodayeas kaye galilayeas kaye samarayas aycon ayraynayn oikodomoomenaye kaye poryoomenaye tow fobow too kurioo kaye tay paraklaysay too agioo pnyoomatos eplaythunonto (http://www.russ.org/gtb/luke.html#a9)
Acts 9:31
So the Church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.
From this text, we can see the Greek word “kath olays” which is rendered “Catholic” in modern English and the word “ekklaysiaye” which becomes “ecclesia” in English and is commonly translated as “church”.
εκκλησια καθ᾽ὁλης = ekklaysiaye kath olays = “the church throughout all” = Catholic Church.
I've already addressed the fact that Ignatius did NOT coin the term in another thread...but for the sake of the lurkers here, I'll review the matter again.
Origin of the name “Catholic Church’
Originally Christians weren’t even called Christians. They were called "disciples" (i.e., "students") of Jesus of Nazareth. Later, in the city of Antioch, they received the name "Christians" (Acts 11:26). This probably happened in the A.D. 30s. This term spread very quickly—probably to the chagrin of those Jewish individuals who did not wish to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah (Christ).
Ultimately, however, different groups began to break off from the Christian community, falling into either heresy or schism. These groups still wished to represent themselves as Christian—and many of them were, retaining valid baptism and a profession of faith in Christ. Consequently, a new word was needed to distinguish the Christians belonging to the Church that Christ founded from those belonging to the churches that had split off from it.
The term that was picked was kataholos, which means according to the whole or universal in Greek. The thought was apparently that these were Christians who believed and practiced according to what body of Christians as a whole did, in contrast to what some particular group thought or did. Over the course of time, kataholos came to be represented by the parallel English word "Catholic."
Ignatius of Antioch did not introduce kataholos. However, his letters contain the earliest known uses of it. It may well have been used in other Christian writings prior to this, but we have simply lost them. It certainly was in general use in speech before this point, because Ignatius writes in such a way that he already expects his readers to know this term and what it means. He also uses the term in more than one of his letters, meaning that he expects people in more than one place to know the term.
This indicates that in his day—at the beginning of the second century (circa A.D. 107)—the term was already in widespread use. For it to be used in such a broad manner, it would have required some time to pass into currency in the Christian community, meaning that the term probably was coined sometime in the second half of the first century. We don’t know who first used it, but it was a suitable description of the Church Christ founded and so was already in general use by the time Ignatius wrote.
If you could provide some evidence that the Catholic Church has ever changed (contradicted) the faith that was handed on from the Apostles, I would be most interested to review it.
As has been said, Ignatius simply used the term "Catholic Church" because it was already in widespread usage and known to his audience.
Great! All of it? What about the doctrine of transubstantiation - clearly taught by Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:24-26? Or that of the forgiveness of sins confessed to a priest? That's clearly taught by Paul here:
2 Corinthians 2:10
10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; (KJV)
And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ. (Douay Rheims)
Yes, the Bible is YOUR sole authority, Katie...it's just not the sole authority established by Jesus for His Church on earth.
But, since you read your Bible so much more than us ignorant Catholics, would you mind providing a verse which teaches that the Bible Alone is the sole rule of faith for the believer?
After all, shouldn't the doctrine of sola scriptura itself be found in scripture?
Wow!
I am impressed
Seriously, you know your stuff.
Maybe we can bring back Katie to Catholicism.
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