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I don't believe that Jesus' words are weak at all. It's a matter of what "Torah" you believe is applicable to our lives.
When you say "Torah", do you believe the 613 statutes and ordinances, including the ceremonial law, remains binding on Christians?
"Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary". Gal 3:19
There is a law which is for believers in Jesus... the law of Christ, law of liberty, law of the Spirit of life, etc.
Jesus explained and lived this perfect law during His life. Basically, I understand this to be an expansion of the 10 commandments (enlarging/explaining their scope, meaning and intent). Would you agree, or is your thought that we are all expected to keep the entire Mosaic covenant... circumcision, sacrifice, the works?
Blessings
Steph
I wonder why Yeshua quoted from the Torah then?...
Whoever believed that the Law saves you is wrong as we are saved by Jesus' blood on the cross. With that seemingly oversimplification and to some a revelation let's try to examine let me generalize by saying that some parts of the Lawmay not be applicable . Animal sacrifice to test faith has been replaced by Jesus ' sacrifice and a shift to faith in Him not withstanding Jesus the singular mediator to God (all other mediators are idolatry) The early church especially influenced by Constantine dumped most of the Laws and Jewish feasts and and slowly began introducing "religion" and recruiting "people of religion" . As a side note by this time the apostles baptism Acts2:38 was changed to the triune formula and that followed Nicea's infant baptism and the Sabbath being changed to Sunday (the new 7th day). Heres a lilttle tidbit for history freaks, namely that Constantine mandated His SUN DAY to worship the sun god hmmm the sneaky little pagan liked the sun (isn't that special)!. Anyway, as we march through the insanity of religion we now find (much to the shock of many that even evangelicals (your kidd'in me!) adopted what is now Catholicisms dogmas (not all but biggies).
Oh "the church" did manage to clean house of most of the mysticism,perversion of scripture and doctrine but via bible colleges cirriculums manged to retain religion with the guise of distancing themselves . So no Law,no apostles baptism, no real knowledge of the idocyncracies of Paul,no gifts of the spirit no real teaching of OT prophets and endtimes senario's Christians are awash in a partial cesspool of religion, but just don't get it. On the other hand some christian leaders are recognizing the Jewish feasts as oops ! and the Law as opps those early church fathers don't repesent us and never did! Most Christian fellowships have long realized not to have icons,mediators,intercessory prayer to the dead or for the dead, have minimized ceremony likened to pagan ritual and via intense bible study beginning to realize religion is a partially a fraud albeit distraction and we are not lineaged after all to Justin Marytr,Popes,Constantine,Nicea and scripturally perverted nonesense. Since I'am in the process of restoring Jewish feasts and holiday's (presently studying (Passover) and of course the Law and how we are to adide by it today all I can do is suggest you and your groups research yourselves and earnestly seek Holy Spirit enlightenment.
There is absolutely NO sensibility to any of the following beliefs based on the reality of the culture and individuals involved in the ORIGINAL faith espoused by Messiah Yahushua.
* Anyone that really thinks that people coming from a Hebrew culture wrote and thought like Greeks is emphatically deluded
* If you believe that so much as ONE word was done away with in the Torah (the 1st 5 books of Moshe, prophets and Psalms) you never read a word Messiah Yahushua stated to those HE taught, nor those the Talmadim (apostles) taught
* If you believe that Yahushua is coming for some church, or people who have NOT grafted into Israel you are also sorely deluded and have no foundational truths embedded in your so called belief system. Yahushua stated it plainly as did many of the Talmadim, that the Bride is "Israel" and NOBODY else. IF you were or are a Gentile (by defintion re: Shaul/Paul lost undone and without YHVH) then you are NOT a part of the promise. Those that graft into Israel and become one with the natural branch ARE and are NO LONGER a Gentile, they leave their Gentile nature BEHIND. You accept the Torah of Moshe and DO HIS commandments (as HE asked you to). If you still have scales on and can't see this truth than I will be praying for you that you make it through the end times and have the scales removed in time to see this. Otherwise all you will try to do is argue that which can't be argued. HE didn't come to start a new religion, HE didn't die on a cross (pagan symbol of death) it was a stake, and HE came to provide the sacrifice required by Hebrew law in order to be forgiven, providing a PATH of Teshuvah (repentance) for those that WOULD do so in order to have the gift of salvation provided by this sacrifice.
Nearly EVERYTHING that YHVH and Yahushua stated was a "IF" statement, there is NO free ride unless to TAKE the opportunity to be HIS. If you think otherwise all you need do is re read Matthew and 1st John sometime. HE knows who are HIS and if you DON"T do HIS word you aren't. Pretty simple really. IT is all about ACTION, not what you think!!! Your fruits are the result of your ACTIONS. HE judges based on the fruit. NO action NO fruit. Nuff said
For those of you who are trying to earn eternal salvation by keeping the Law. No one is or can be saved by trying to keep the Law. Romans 3:20 'because by the works of the Law no flesh shall be justified in His sight; for though the Law comes the knowledge of sin.'
The purpose of the giving of the Law was to show that no one can keep it perfectly. James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all".
Only one person ever kept the Law perfectly. And that man was Jesus Christ who came to fulfill the Law. Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Because Jesus Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Law, anyone who believes on Jesus Christ during this dispensation is IN CHRIST, and therefore is free from the Law. Romans 8:1 'There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3] For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin. He condemned sin in the flesh, 4] in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Those of you who have never trusted in Christ alone for eternal salvation, but instead are trying to work your way to heaven by keeping the Law which had as its purpose to reveal your inability to keep it, and which pointed to Christ, are working your way deeper and deeper into a dept which you can never pay. You owe God perfect righteousness. You can never meet that requirement. If you are trusting in your efforts to keep the Law for eternal salvation, and you die never having instead simply trusted only in Jesus Christ for your eternal salvation, then your final and irrevocable destination is the eternal lake of fire. The very thing you are working so hard to avoid.
The only way to have a righteousness by which you can have a relationship with God is by being credited or imputed with God's own perfect righteousness at the moment of faith alone in Christ alone. Rom 5:1 Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2] through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
How are you eternally saved? Acts 16:31 'Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...' It's that simple.
There is absolutely NO sensibility to any of the following beliefs based on the reality of the culture and individuals involved in the ORIGINAL faith espoused by Messiah Yahushua.
* Anyone that really thinks that people coming from a Hebrew culture wrote and thought like Greeks is emphatically deluded
* If you believe that so much as ONE word was done away with in the Torah (the 1st 5 books of Moshe, prophets and Psalms) you never read a word Messiah Yahushua stated to those HE taught, nor those the Talmadim (apostles) taught
* If you believe that Yahushua is coming for some church, or people who have NOT grafted into Israel you are also sorely deluded and have no foundational truths embedded in your so called belief system. Yahushua stated it plainly as did many of the Talmadim, that the Bride is "Israel" and NOBODY else. IF you were or are a Gentile (by defintion re: Shaul/Paul lost undone and without YHVH) then you are NOT a part of the promise. Those that graft into Israel and become one with the natural branch ARE and are NO LONGER a Gentile, they leave their Gentile nature BEHIND. You accept the Torah of Moshe and DO HIS commandments (as HE asked you to). If you still have scales on and can't see this truth than I will be praying for you that you make it through the end times and have the scales removed in time to see this. Otherwise all you will try to do is argue that which can't be argued. HE didn't come to start a new religion, HE didn't die on a cross (pagan symbol of death) it was a stake, and HE came to provide the sacrifice required by Hebrew law in order to be forgiven, providing a PATH of Teshuvah (repentance) for those that WOULD do so in order to have the gift of salvation provided by this sacrifice.
Nearly EVERYTHING that YHVH and Yahushua stated was a "IF" statement, there is NO free ride unless to TAKE the opportunity to be HIS. If you think otherwise all you need do is re read Matthew and 1st John sometime. HE knows who are HIS and if you DON"T do HIS word you aren't. Pretty simple really. IT is all about ACTION, not what you think!!! Your fruits are the result of your ACTIONS. HE judges based on the fruit. NO action NO fruit. Nuff said
Hi dcisive,
Did Jesus fulfil any of the Torah? Is any of the Torah not binding today (circumcision, sacrificial system, dietary regulations, ceremonial laws..?) Is there a new covenant? If so, what does that look like, in your view? Do Christians have to obey every law in the Pentateuch?
Romans 11:29 is specifically regarding Israel, not the Gentiles...You can't use it to support your theological position...Yehovaw called Isreal and blessed them with much...It is this calling of Israel and the blessings bestowed upon them that are unregrettable...For even Yeshua stated that He came only for the Lost Sheep of the House of Isreal...
Only in His days in the flesh did He come to the lost sheep of Israel but later under Peter, Paul and others the lost sheep of the gentles were grafted in.
JN 10:16 And other sheep [gentles] I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. We gentles are grafted in to the one fold.
Absolutely right. You have to sell all your belongings and give the money to the poor. That's what Jesus said!
No, that is what He said to a certain rich man and no doubt to all that might need to do but only if money has become their God. Gods' pathway is different for all. That is why Jesus said call no man Teacher/Rabbi because only Christ can teach each individual the pathway suited for them. Too many try to play God and give instruction that is not of His Spirit. Only God can give such instruction.
Perhaps not the point you were making but I thought it an opportune time to make these comments.
The ONE fold is still Israel. Unless of course you are one of those "dispesationalists". Good luck with that. Lost sheep are indeed "Lost" sheep. But once they are found they are Israel NOT gentiles. If you think ONE word of the Torah was "done away with" I guess you choose to dismiss Matthew 5:17-20. Heaven and Earth have NOT passed away so indeed IF you are HIS and you are Israel you WILL follow Torah. If you are of a man made religion of christianity then go right ahead and make it up as you go. You all seem to be doing just fine at it from what I can see. Cut and paste your way to what works for YOU.
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