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The Mormons use that verse to prove that Yeshua was speaking of the American Indians, or a lost tribe of Jews that ended up here in the Americas...It does not states this...It simply states 'Other Sheep' that are not of this fold...What fold is He speaking about
You're on the right track about what the Mormons believe, but you don't have it quite right.
First, let's start by reviewing the entire passage that speaks of "other sheep." It's in John 10:16. Jesus tells His followers, "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold: Them also must I bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd."
He had previously (Matthew 15:24 stated, "I am not sent but unto thelost sheep of the house of Israel."
(1) Mormons believe that two nuclear families and an individual man (all Israelites) migrated to the American continent under the direction of a prophet who was told to lead them here. We're not talking about anywhere near an entire "lost tribe." We're talking about maybe 40 people. (2) Mormons believe that they multiplied and grew in numbers, but that they intermarried with the other people who were on this continent when they got here. (3) Mormons believe that the people Jesus visited on the American continent were of the House of Israel, not the American Indians.
Jesus referred to sheep not of the same fold as those He was speaking to in the Holy Land, but they were also His sheep. He also said that they would hear His voice, not just His message as taught later on by the Apostles. If they were His sheep and would hear His voice, they had to be from the house of Israel. They could not have been gentiles.
Considering the fact the Nations(gentiles) and Israel were scattered to the 4 corners of the earth that's quite a feat. Israel was made up of 12 tribes that ended up widely scattered. Who's to say what fragments ended up where. That's a wide brush you'd have to paint with to determine that. There is however NO doubt that Israel is the "Bride of Messiah" and who HE is returning for. ONLY Israel has the covenant with YHVH. So ANYONE who is grafted in (no restriction) and follows the WORD of Elohim (which is the Torah) are HIS. Even the Gentiles who graft in (and are no longer Gentiles) are ONE with Israel as adopted sons and daughters.
Apparently the truth hurts, and to those who are convicted by the truth it appears to be rude and arrogant (because it doesn't provide the warm and fuzzies christians love to spread about). There is NOTHING of the Torah that has been done away with. If you believe that I have a bridge for sale very cheap in NY. I have provided more than ample evidence through scripture of this, but you just like to cut and paste others from the NT which weren't even taught or around during the ministries of the Messiah. Once again HE taught from the scrolls of the Torah. There isn't anything HE taught that can't be traced back to the Tanakh, yet you love to refer to it as "The Old Testament". Classic Greco Roman thinking. I have nothing to add here obviously as the scales are in place. But rest assured there is NO Gentile present in the Commwealth of Israel. The old nature is left behind as they graft into the covenant with YHVH. Messiah is and was the "facilitator" but make NO mistake the source of it all is YHVH. Even Messiah said so, but yet you'd rather worship Messiah. Guess I'm done here. I'll leave all you Gentiles (I guess) to do your thing. it's not rude....it's just the facts as they are. Guess you "can't handle the truth".
Concerning the rudness, I already agreed with you about Gentles becoming grafted in and the law not being done away with except of coarse the Temple service and temporary ordinances of which there where many but you seemed to want to attack my position anyways and you do not even know me.
The prophet Jeremiah called it a new covenant so by any common sense the O.T. Is the old covenant and the new is the new. If you want to be an effective communicator then you should use the language that everyone else uses or you are of no value to being a witness.
The Messiah is Jesus in the English language as a rose by any other name is still a rose. God did not ask me to know Hebrew or any other language but I certainly respect your knowledge of Hebrew as you should respect mine to witness about Messiah using His English name. God is a transliterater of truth to any language because He is the savior of all men who will believe not just the Jew. That above all should be respected.
I will Teshuvah if I have offended you brother. Point taken. I just tend to be more of the thought that those coming IN and crossing over from the Greco Roman understanding to their Hebrew understanding should learn the terms used by those that were walking the planet back then. They weren't fluent in Greek and most often didn't have to be. They spoke more Aramaic than anything with a smattering of Hebrew of course. I'm not about to say I reach nearly as many as perhaps I might by using the corrected terms and names. But I get it done as they say for the most part. I'm not expecting to be mr. popularity thats for sure. But then Messiah Yahushua wasn't either it seems. HE just spoke the truth, and often in the dialect and idioms of HIS people initially. I realize I don't always speak to the choir, but I give it a shot
I will Teshuvah if I have offended you brother. Point taken. I just tend to be more of the thought that those coming IN and crossing over from the Greco Roman understanding to their Hebrew understanding should learn the terms used by those that were walking the planet back then. They weren't fluent in Greek and most often didn't have to be. They spoke more Aramaic than anything with a smattering of Hebrew of course. I'm not about to say I reach nearly as many as perhaps I might by using the corrected terms and names. But I get it done as they say for the most part. I'm not expecting to be mr. popularity thats for sure. But then Messiah Yahushua wasn't either it seems. HE just spoke the truth, and often in the dialect and idioms of HIS people initially. I realize I don't always speak to the choir, but I give it a shot
Nobody is asking you to SAY anything other than what you believe to be true. You should watch how you say it though, or your message will be obscured by your delivery.
24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
I will Tereshkova if I have offended you brother. Point taken. I just tend to be more of the thought that those coming IN and crossing over from the Greco Roman understanding to their Hebrew understanding should learn the terms used by those that were walking the planet back then. They weren't fluent in Greek and most often didn't have to be. They spoke more Aramaic than anything with a smattering of Hebrew of course. I'm not about to say I reach nearly as many as perhaps I might by using the corrected terms and names. But I get it done as they say for the most part. I'm not expecting to be mr. popularity thats for sure. But then Messiah Yahushua wasn't either it seems. HE just spoke the truth, and often in the dialect and idioms of HIS people initially. I realize I don't always speak to the choir, but I give it a shot
There may well be something we can ALL agree upon. That would be that our love for Elohim (G-d) is unceasing as is our love of HIS manifestation sent to us to provide our salvation Yahushua (Jesus). We aspire, work towards and pray that we will ALL be inside those gates of Yerushaliyim when HE arrives once more to take HIS bride to be with HIM. We will ALL rejoice upon HIS coming and praise the Most High YHVH for HIS gift to us Forever and Ever. Amein
There may well be something we can ALL agree upon. That would be that our love for Elohim (G-d) is unceasing as is our love of HIS manifestation sent to us to provide our salvation Yahushua (Jesus). We aspire, work towards and pray that we will ALL be inside those gates of Yerushaliyim when HE arrives once more to take HIS bride to be with HIM. We will ALL rejoice upon HIS coming and praise the Most High YHVH for HIS gift to us Forever and Ever. Amein
To the contrary. Eternal life is a free gift which you do nothing to earn or maintain. The believers works are judged for the purpose of eternal rewards. Not eternal life.
Every disciple of Jesus is a believer, but not every believer in Jesus Christ is a disciple. But every believer in Jesus Christ is eternally saved.
Romans 6:23 'For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.'
Romans 11:29 'for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
The phrase in 1 John 2:5 'in Him,' does not refer to the believers legal and unbreakable position in Christ which is the result of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but rather, it refers to the believers day to day rapport or fellowship with Christ in which the believer walks by the Spirit rather than being under the control of his sin nature (Gal 5:16).
Inheriting the kingdom of God (Gal 5:21) is not a reference to eternal life, but to eternal rewards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Romans 11:29 is specifically regarding Israel, not the Gentiles...You can't use it to support your theological position...Yehovaw called Isreal and blessed them with much...It is this calling of Israel and the blessings bestowed upon them that are unregrettable...For even Yeshua stated that He came only for the Lost Sheep of the House of Isreal...
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I have provided more than ample evidence through scripture of this, but you just like to cut and paste others from the NT which weren't even taught or around during the ministries of the Messiah. Once again HE taught from the scrolls of the Torah. There isn't anything HE taught that can't be traced back to the Tanakh, yet you love to refer to it as "The Old Testament". Classic Greco Roman thinking. I have nothing to add here obviously as the scales are in place. But rest assured there is NO Gentile present in the Commwealth of Israel. The old nature is left behind as they graft into the covenant with YHVH. Messiah is and was the "facilitator" but make NO mistake the source of it all is YHVH. Even Messiah said so, but yet you'd rather worship Messiah. Guess I'm done here. I'll leave all you Gentiles (I guess) to do your thing. it's not rude....it's just the facts as they are. Guess you "can't handle the truth".
