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God's grace has appeared, bringing salvation, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in the present age, as we wait for the appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession who are ZEALOUS for good works!!
We are commanded to obey.
We are enabled to obey.
I don't see a problem with this.
God's grace is available to us as we exercise faith! God's grace is more than just favour at the cross, robing us in righteousness (yes it is that). It is also training in godliness. We have been delivered from the POWER of sin.
I'll never understand why people who desire to live a holy life and believe that God's grace has made it possible through the cross and by His Spirit are criticized as legalists or accused of trying to earn their salvation.
To say that a believer can deny Christ and He will still welcome us as sons (just without any additional perks or rewards) is absolutely contrary to the message of Jesus.
"Good works" for salvation is not an optional extra, like a side of fries at your local McDonalds. Being a Christian is being a disciple
Amen, steph !!
The bold and underlined imho.... it seems to be an excuse to continue in the flesh (sin).... that kind of thinking keeps the mind, the conscience justifying the guilt that the Holy Spirit brings into the heart of the lifestyle, choices, whatever they are really living....
No real solid commitment to Lord.... it's lips service rather then the heart really hungering and desiring to do the will of the Lord.. in my books !!
God promise and says sin shall not have dominion over us.... that He will give the way of escape to come out from under any temptation that is trying to snare one into sin, by which separates one from the Lord.... and I believe Him and He has proved this over and over again in my life !!
Why would He forgive, deliver us from/for our sin and then say go and sin no more ??? Many reasons for that statement Jesus made and many will see its truth one day.....
He doesn't deliver you from a life of sin to continue in it.... that would be a lie and mocking what He did on the cross....
Amen, steph !!
The bold and underlined imho.... it seems to be an excuse to continue in the flesh (sin).... that kind of thinking keeps the mind, the conscience justifying the guilt that the Holy Spirit brings into the heart of the lifestyle, choices, whatever they are really living....
No real solid commitment to Lord.... it's lips service rather then the heart really hungering and desiring to do the will of the Lord.. in my books !!
God promise and says sin shall not have dominion over us.... that He will give the way of escape to come out from under any temptation that is trying to snare one into sin, by which separates one from the Lord.... and I believe Him and He has proved this over and over again in my life !!
Why would He forgive, deliver us from/for our sin and then say go and sin no more ??? Many reasons for that statement Jesus made and many will see its truth one day.....
He doesn't deliver you from a life of sin to continue in it.... that would be a lie and mocking what He did on the cross....
JN 17:22 Jesus said, "And the glory which You have given Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" What does faith and glory mean but to be made righteous in Christ. Glory literally means the Beauty of His Character imparted/imputed by faith. It is impossible to have His glory and not be good and do good works. Genuine faith, "the substance of things not seen", means that God has imparted/imputed His righteousness to you and you are born again into the glory of His character. Faith apart from this happening is dead.
All who were saved in the early church where saved conditionally upon repentance from dead works to faith in Christ who leads to good works. And so it is today. As an example we have the story of Zacchaeus LK 19:8-9 "And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
If the fruit do not follow faith then you are not saved and your faith is dead..
GAL 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
GAL 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
GAL 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
GAL 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
It is written "By their fruit you shall, know them. "MT 7:19 Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is cut down, and cast into the fire.
MT 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them."
Eternal life does not depend on any thing that we do without Christ but it does depend on being in Christ by faith and doing His will by the Holy Spirits' power of goodness.
Amen, steph !!
The bold and underlined imho.... it seems to be an excuse to continue in the flesh (sin).... that kind of thinking keeps the mind, the conscience justifying the guilt that the Holy Spirit brings into the heart of the lifestyle, choices, whatever they are really living....
No real solid commitment to Lord.... it's lips service rather then the heart really hungering and desiring to do the will of the Lord.. in my books !!
God promise and says sin shall not have dominion over us.... that He will give the way of escape to come out from under any temptation that is trying to snare one into sin, by which separates one from the Lord.... and I believe Him and He has proved this over and over again in my life !!
Why would He forgive, deliver us from/for our sin and then say go and sin no more ??? Many reasons for that statement Jesus made and many will see its truth one day.....
He doesn't deliver you from a life of sin to continue in it.... that would be a lie and mocking what He did on the cross....
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Quote:
I'll never understand why people who desire to live a holy life and believe that God's grace has made it possible through the cross and by His Spirit are criticized as legalists or accused of trying to earn their salvation.
Steph the concern is when it is made as a requirement to obtain Salvation from eternal Damnation.
The Galatian church was teaching that Salvation was by faith and the Works of the Mosaic Law. Paul rebuked the church quite harshly for this. Regarding adding the Law to Faith, he said.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
We tend to apply to this something like Islam, but the text with context with this talking about adding "Works of the Law" as a basis of justification along with faith.
Galatians 2
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
In Romans, Paul talks about those that are adding "Keeping the Law" in addition to faith for Justification (salvation from Perdition) as "Adulterers". He uses the marriage analogy.
Romans 7
1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The issue is understanding God's Grace in his "free gift" of Salvation in his Son Christ Jesus and the "Liberty" we have. All very important terms to understand.
Regarding adding our works to our Justification, Paul says
Galatians 5:5-9
5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Leaven puffs up. Pride puffs up. God hates pride. It's said God's answer to our pride is Grace.
The Lord said this about Leaven.
Matthew 16:11-12 11How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
It was so bad for these folks that they stumbled at the stumbling stone.
Romans 9
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
It's said that God's grace is his answer to our Pride. I believe it. A free gift totally apart from man's effort to do anything to help himself.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Steph the concern is when it is made as a requirement to obtain Salvation from eternal Damnation.
The Galatian church was teaching that Salvation was by faith and the Works of the Mosaic Law. Paul rebuked the church quite harshly for this. <snip>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980
I think a key difference between those who believe obedience is NOT required for salvation and those who believe it IS required is this:
The former believe Jesus died to save us from the penalty of sin.
The latter believe Jesus died to save us from the power of sin.
Is this a fair assessment, in your opinion?
The confusion stems from conflating salvation with sanctification and justification. Salvation has nothing to do with us . . . Christ accomplished that. Our sanctification and justification is our task to build on that foundation Christ laid of eternal life for us all connected to God. "Working out our salvation" does not refer to the end result but to building upon the salvation Christ provided us.
Since it is believed that Yeshua Ha Meshiach is one and the same as Yehovaw Elohim Hawyaw...And Yehovaw Elohim Hawyaw gave 613 Laws through Moses to the Israelites...Then if Yeshua Ha Meshiach stated, 'Keep My commandments'...What commandments was He speaking of if He was Yehovaw Elohim Hawyaw in the flesh?...The same Yehovaw Elohim Hawyaw that gave the 613 Laws to Israel...And if you have seen Me then you have seen the Father...I and the Father are one...I must be about my Father's business...Does anyone here understand the Judaic system by which the authority of the father is passed on to the son?...The firstborn?...If you can understand that then you will understand the aspect of who Yeshua Ha Meshiach was...
I think a key difference between those who believe obedience is NOT required for salvation and those who believe it IS required is this:
The former believe Jesus died to save us from the penalty of sin.
The latter believe Jesus died to save us from the power of sin.
Is this a fair assessment, in your opinion?
The "former" believes that Jesus died to save us from the penalty and power of sin, but Justification (saved from Perdition in Christ)(separation from the penalty of sin) is a past-tense, once-and-for-all event occurring initially upon believing/repenting in heart being "born-again". This event being 100 percent an act of God totally separate apart from what a believer can or can't do. As nothing was done but believe/repent in heart to receive the "free gift" of life, nothing can be done to lose it. As one is "born-again" they cannot become unborn as they are "sealed until the day of redemption. The believer is grafted, born-again into the Olive tree/vine God in Christ so they can now start producing fruit by abiding in Christ being Sanctified (separated from the Power of Sin) being empowered by the Spirit of God.
The "Latter" believes that the believers "Sanctification" (separated from the Power of Sin) is an essential element for Justification (separated from the penalty of sin)(Past, Present, and Future tense) because it depends on the believers walk. A believer not "set apart" (sanctified) is not "in Christ".
Then you have those "Keeping the Law" and they've completely missed the point of the book of Galatians entirely. That's why many Messianics don't like Paul, despite the fact Peter calls his writings Scriptures and other clues from the text that he was a chosen vessel for God. He gives us the "mystery of Salvation" which means his writings are pretty darn important.
Justification looks to be a past-time once-and for all event. The issue is not attempting to pardon sin which many would jump to this conclusion. The issue is understanding the Grace of God.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Is motivation for obedience in a faithfulness walk a response to being saved and testimony of the Grace of God producing fruit? Or is motivation for obedience of faith a response to get saved? Romans 11:6 suggests that any attempt add anything to God's works for merits of Justification will result in being burned up at the Bema Seat. Free gift being a free gift. Totally independent upon us and unconditional based upon God's faithfulness. Our salvation being totally in God's hands not our own.
This does not mean we are not to obey the gospel. It means we can do absolutely nothing to save ourselves being 100 percent dependent upon God's works. Good works and faithfulness being testimony of God's saving Grace not a basis for God's saving Grace.
"Justify" is an important word that is used as a past tense event upon believing. This occurs when we receive the Holy Spirit (passive on our part) once and for all. It's described as a "down payment" of sorts. He's purchased us. We will be rewarded or suffer loss depending upon our faithfulness. The Lord calls the "unprofitable servant" his servant.
Matthew 25:29-31
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Since this occurs at the same time as the resurrection of other believers, one can conclude that the "outer darkness" is not Gehenna (which occurs at the Great White Throne at the end of the Millenium). Saved by the blood of the Cross by God's faithfulness. Cast into outer darkness by a lack of their faithfulness.
Either way it doesn't look good for those that are Christ's that aren't faithful. The Scriptures sugges we are in a position were we can loose our "inheritance". Both Esau and Saul are examples as well as those at Kadesh Barnea that couldn't enter the promise land due lack of belief. A blood redeemed people delivered from Egypt that couldn't enter the Promise land due to a lack of faith in the Wilderness (idiom for this life).
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