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I have to point out that the part I highlighted in red is talking about leaders in the church.... proven by verse 6, which gives as examples of such leaders the names of Apollos and Paul. So the "we" of verse 9 are the church leaders who are doing the building, and the "ye" are the people of the church who are the actual building. Therefore, it stands to reason that when Paul says "every man" throughout that context, he is not talking about every single believer, but rather, every single builder (him and Apollos being just two of many)
I disagree, Steph . . . the references by Paul were to contravene the kind of identification with specific leaders/teachers that was occurring as people identified as "of Paul" or "of Apollos" etc. It does NOT constrain the applicability of the verses to the teachers . . . just the opposite. The purpose of verse 7 was to disabuse everyone of the inappropriateness of assigning any "specialness" assigned to anyone.
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I know you value applying one's mind to the text and not forcing an interpretation on it, and that is what I have tried to do here. Let me know if you still think I'm out in left field.
Steph
Whatever Paul taught is applicable to everyone, Steph . . . there are no special groups and there is no individual "specialness." This is why I have such disdain for the RCC hierarchy . . . Christ knew no hierarchy, established no hierarchy, tolerated no hierarchy, and specifically disabused those of His followers who sought to be "first." God is no respecter of persons . . . we are all equal in His sight and in His expectations.
I disagree, Steph . . . the references by Paul were to contravene the kind of identification with specific leaders/teachers that was occurring as people identified as "of Paul" or "of Apollos" etc. It does NOT constrain the applicability of the verses to the teachers . . . just the opposite. The purpose of verse 7 was to disabuse everyone of the inappropriateness of assigning any "specialness" assigned to anyone.Whatever Paul taught is applicable to everyone, Steph . . . there are no special groups and there is no individual "specialness." This is why I have such disdain for the RCC hierarchy . . . Christ knew no hierarchy, established no hierarchy, tolerated no hierarchy, and specifically disabused those of His followers who sought to be "first." God is no respecter of persons . . . we are all equal in His sight and in His expectations.
Hi Mystic,
You are talking about all believers being equal. Paul is talking about all leaders in the church being equal with one another. It is clear that both the planter and the waterer will receive wages according to their labour, from verse 8. The church should not be making distinctions between their leaders, Paul says. After all, it is God who causes the growth. Paul is saying that each leader has his part to play, but are ultimately united in their efforts.... what good is a field if it is planted but not watered? Or watered but not planted? In other words, neither Paul nor Apollos can be elevated above the other. He isn't saying that the believers shouldn't recognize leadership in the church. IMHO.
I agree with your aversion to worldly hierarchy within the church. It is not God's pattern at all. The leaders God has given to the church are servant-leaders, who lead as Jesus did. This does not mean there is no leadership in the church, though, or that leaders who serve well should not be honoured. Paul says: Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages."
Lee, this is a classic passage that is championed by those who believe that you can live how you please as a believer and not suffer any eternal consequence other than losing "rewards".
There are a few problems with this interpretation!
Firstly, saying that a person's works will be burned up but they will survive the flames (and receive eternal life regardless) flies in the face of MANY other Scriptures. So why does this one get so much attention and in fact form the backbone of such a teaching?
Secondly, the context of this passage is not taken into account by those who teach that this is talking about rewards for obedience. This passage is NOT talking about rewards for righteousness. It is talking about the "work" of ministers of the gospel or church leaders. The whole context is about various leaders, including apostles, building on the foundation of Christ. The church (people) are the building. Paul even says later in 1 Corinthians "Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?" 9:1
The work that is being talked about here is the work of building the church, not the works of obedience/disobedience. If you think about it, the wood, hay, stubble, precious stones, gold, etc, are actually the people in the church! Of course the church 'builders' will suffer a loss of their work if people in their churches do not endure, but this will not be to the eternal detriment of their own souls!
In his second letter to the same church, Paul clearly states "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things [done] in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad"
So we are all going to receive what is due, according to our works whether good or bad. It doesn't say here that those who have done bad will just not receive anything.
And then how about James? In chapter 2 he says that judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. This lines up perfectly with what Jesus taught about being forgiven a great debt and then going off and not extending forgiveness in kind to those who have wronged us. Our heavenly Father will NOT forgive us, it says. In other words, He will revoke His pardon! So are we to foolishly believe that faith without works is actually able to save? That is a blatant contradiction of James 2, and yet it is precisely what some would have us believe.
I can think of a dozen other passages and parables that have bearing on this subject, but I'll leave it at that for now. Every time I think about this teaching about how obedience is not essential, it distresses me. What are your thoughts?
Blessings
Steph
Based upon the Born-again doctrine, one is saved by receiving (passive) the Spirit of God (God's imputed righteousness) upon believing (repenting in heart?).
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Both Paul and the Lord says the Holy Spirit is with the born-again until redemption. Actually the Lord says forever. Can one that is born-again become unborn?
I believe we can rest in God's faithfulness in his promises totally trusting him to deliver.
Romans 3:3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
I believe someone Born-again has a new nature from a new Heart that desires the things of God, even if it's warring with the old man.
Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
I really believe that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Our faithfulness may fail, but God's won't. I think a lot of folks are going to get saved when things start to really bad and they start realizing how bad it is.
All these conversations come down to understanding God's Grace. That is huge because this one word is his demonstration of his love for us. Is Grace conditional or unconditional?
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 10:27-29
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I think we can contribute nothing at all to our salvation but to accept God's free gift of Grace receiving forgiveness trusting in his works.
Evidently we can receive the grace of God in vain.
2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Loss of inheritance is something that is Scriptural. Esau being the greatest example, but there being many others. Rewards are scriptural as well. Faithful obedience comes from the Heart out of love for our savior Messiah Jesus. God is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him (Hebrews 12).
Jeremiah 24 6For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
7And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
I believe in the Power of God to transform the lives of those he seals. When God says he shall do it, it never fails.
I know out of personal experience, upon learning the truth something happened. I can only describe it as being born-again. The first thing I did was grab a Bible and the letters seemed to jump off the page. I did nothing at all. I felt my heart sink down to my belly upon learning the truth and felt something happen. My head went back, and closed my eyes. I was all alone in my room when it happened. Every now and then I feel a tingling sensation over my entire body. It seems to come and go - kind of like the wind. I believe it's the comforter. So I am a believer of the born-again doctrine. Certain things the old man reveled in aren't enjoyable anymore. Extreme guilt and shame sets in. My family wonders why I don't like to be center stage playing music anymore, and why I've sold most my music equipment which I spent years building up. I can only describe it as the new birth. The old man's ways are no longer satisfying. So my testimony.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 02-10-2012 at 09:26 PM..
You are talking about all believers being equal. Paul is talking about all leaders in the church being equal with one another. It is clear that both the planter and the waterer will receive wages according to their labour, from verse 8. The church should not be making distinctions between their leaders, Paul says. After all, it is God who causes the growth. Paul is saying that each leader has his part to play, but are ultimately united in their efforts.... what good is a field if it is planted but not watered? Or watered but not planted? In other words, neither Paul nor Apollos can be elevated above the other. He isn't saying that the believers shouldn't recognize leadership in the church. IMHO.
I agree with your aversion to worldly hierarchy within the church. It is not God's pattern at all. The leaders God has given to the church are servant-leaders, who lead as Jesus did. This does not mean there is no leadership in the church, though, or that leaders who serve well should not be honoured. Paul says: Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages."
Blessings
Steph
In the early church there was total equality and sharing of everything. The thought of anyone being in a special category was discouraged. "Leaders" were simply those with more knowledge of the Gospel to share . . . not "in charge" as in today's world. The whole notion of "ruling" is a corruption that seems unavoidable in human systems. I believe we are in general agreement, Steph. But the verses concerning works refer to all of us as we pursue the task of sanctification and justification under Christ's grace. The salvation part was accomplished by Christ and it is truly finished.
God's grace has appeared, bringing salvation, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in the present age, as we wait for the appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession who are ZEALOUS for good works!!
We are commanded to obey.
We are enabled to obey.
I don't see a problem with this.
God's grace is available to us as we exercise faith! God's grace is more than just favour at the cross, robing us in righteousness (yes it is that). It is also training in godliness. We have been delivered from the POWER of sin.
I'll never understand why people who desire to live a holy life and believe that God's grace has made it possible through the cross and by His Spirit are criticized as legalists or accused of trying to earn their salvation.
To say that a believer can deny Christ and He will still welcome us as sons (just without any additional perks or rewards) is absolutely contrary to the message of Jesus.
"Good works" for salvation is not an optional extra, like a side of fries at your local McDonalds. Being a Christian is being a disciple
Last edited by Steph1980; 02-10-2012 at 10:36 PM..
God's grace has appeared, bringing salvation, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in the present age, as we wait for the appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession who are ZEALOUS for good works!!
We are commanded to obey.
We are enabled to obey.
I don't see a problem with this.
God's grace is available to us as we exercise faith! God's grace is more than just favour at the cross, robing us in righteousness (yes it is that). It is also training in godliness. We have been delivered from the POWER of sin.
I'll never understand why people who desire to live a holy life and believe that God's grace has made it possible through the cross and by His Spirit are criticized as legalists or accused of trying to earn their salvation.
To say that a believer can deny Christ and He will still welcome us as sons (just without any additional perks or rewards) is absolutely contrary to the message of Jesus. Why would
"Good works" for salvation is not an optional extra, like a side of fries at your local McDonalds. Being a Christian is being a disciple
When obedience is made a requirement for eternal salvation, it becomes a form of legalism called 'Lordship salvation.' And it is a heresy. It completely ignores the principle of grace which is best described as the policy of the Justice of God in blessing mankind based on the finished and completed work of Jesus Christ on the cross. When Jesus said 'Tetelestai' - it has been accomplished, He meant it.
Jesus Himself said that the only work of God which endures to eternal life is to believe in Him. (John 6:29) Over and over the Bible states that salvation is through faith. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...' (Acts 16:31).
Obedience is something that you do. It is something that you take credit for. And that makes it works when you make it a requirement for eternal life.
Many people cannot seem to understand that living a holy life is something that the believer does AFTER he has been saved. They cannot or will not make the distinction.
Those who attempt to gain salvation by their own righteousness, or by adding their own righteousness to God's instead of trusting ONLY in what Jesus Christ did on the cross on their behalf, are only working themselves deeper into a debt which they can never repay. And they will be judged on the basis of their deeds at the great white throne judgment before going to their final destination in the lake of fire forever (Rev 20:11-15).
Anyone who believes that the believer can lose his salvation doesn't understand the first thing about the grace of God.
And anyone who doesn't understand that everything which comes from human righteousness is condemned by God, and that God can only accept anyone on the basis of His (God's) own Perfect Righteousness does not understand the first thing about the issue in eternal salvation.
Even the good deeds of the believer, the 'gold, silver and precious stones' are produced by the Holy Spirit and not by their own righteousness from which can come only 'wood, hay and straw.'
Anyone who from the time that he first heard the gospel, came away with the misunderstanding that he had to do anything other than simply put his trust totally and completely in the finished work of Christ, and therefore believes that eternal life depends on ANYTHING that he must do, has not been saved and is on his way to hell. If he does not get straightened out and simply come to God through faith alone in Christ alone before he dies, he will spend eternity in the place called the lake of fire.
And I started this thread with the hope that there may be those who will listen before it is too late for them.
i cannot be saved by keeping the law becasue there are too many. i think over 600 of them. so when someone tells me to keep the sabbath but cannot remember at least another 300 by memory then i think they are picking what suits them. My memory cannot contain that many laws. I guess i depend on the Mercy of God.
613 to be exact...How a Jew remembers is by doing his Mitzvah...Which is a commandment to study Torah...It is called Daf Yomi, meaning a page a day and it will take Seven and a half years to complete the daily study of Talmud...And then one begins the cycle over again...This is done ones entire life...It helps one to be a better person...
Well, Richard, you continue to do what your heart tells you to. I have found freedom in Christ.
I will listen to Paul who said attempting to become righteous by adherence to the law is like being Hagar, a bondwoman. I choose to be like Sarah, the free woman. The law was a contract promising rewards based on man's actions. The promise, given to Abraham, was NOT dependent on anything Abraham did. God put Abraham to sleep and HE implemented the covenant strictly based on what He would do because it pleases Him to do it. The law did NOT nullify the promise. The law was given to show us how sinful we are.
This is NOT to say that believers SHOULD devote themselves to this carnal world and run after the pleasures of it. Only those who are pruned and die to self will rule with Christ. But I will NOT insist upon someone following a checklist. God writes in our hearts what we should do and the FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT law is to love God and when we realize who He is and what He is doing for and in us, that outshines any good deed we can ever perform. THEN we are to love our neighbor as ourselves and if you can do that, you will be a disciple of the Son of God and on your way to becoming a disciple yourself. I can't say I'm even close to being there. God has a lot of pruning to do in my heart.
But you continue to check each step you take by the law. If you find comfort in that, far be it from me to snatch it away.
May the sunshine of God's love shine in each one's heart today and draw us ever closer to His radiance.
Peace.
You totally misunderstand where I am coming from...
Help a girl out... I'm a Gentile, like most of us here I imagine.. What do you mean by Torah, exactly? Just so I understand what it is you believe Jesus did and did not do away with?
Thanks Richard
Torah is Yehovaw's Law...But that word Law doesn't quite put it...It is more instruction or guidence than Law...Torah tells one how to live...It is meant for our betterment and it should not be thought of as a burden, but a joy...Yeshua was the walking Torah...All of what He said came from Torah...Here is a good place to see what I am speaking of - D.A.F. - What is Dafyomi?
By one being born from above enables that one to follow Torah out of desire and not external obligation...If one does their Mishnah or Daf Yomi, it should take seven and a half years to complete a study of the Talmud...And then one would start from the beginning and complete another seven and a half year cycle again...For an entire lifetime...And by discipline one develops a habit of the things contained in the Talmud...And thereby becomes a better person...However, it must come from desire not obligation...Yeshua never refuted the Pharasaical teachings, just how they lived it...It was not in their hearts, but all external...As if it were a burden...
Obedience is a fruit of being saved not a merit of being saved. Being "born again" is a 100 percent God's works upon trusting his works in the Resurrection. Once one is born-again, the believer's salvation are in God's hands. Both the Lord and Paul say the Holy Spirit is permanently with the believer until we are with him. The new birth being "born again" into Christ is what saves us from Perdition.
I believe God wants us to be secure in our Salvation. Otherwise he wouldn't have said.
John 10:27-29
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Paul talks about the Helmet of Salvation
Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Hope of Salvation is an expression of Faith and fruit of the Spirit.
Romans 3:24
Being justifiedfreely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Grace - Strong's G5485 - charis 1) grace a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech 2) good will, loving-kindness, favour a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues 3) what is due to grace a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace b) the token or proof of grace, benefit 1) a gift of grace 2) benefit, bounty 4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
We are saved ultimately by trusting God's faithfulness.
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What do you mean by Torah, exactly? Just so I understand what it is you believe Jesus did and did not do away with?
