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Now let me tell you something. I have learned what I know from such doctrinally oriented pastor/teachers as Robert B. Thieme Jr. whose Isagogical, categorical, exegetical teaching became a world wide ministry. He graduated summa *** laud from Dallas Theological Seminary where He acquired the Biblical science of textual criticism and combined with his prior studies at the University of Arizona acquired a total of nine years of Greek and five years of Hebrew. He was pastor of Berachach church in Houston Texas for over 50 years. He is now with the Lord. I began learning from him when I was in my teens. I am now 58 years of age.
That explains the strength of your indoctrination in the "precepts and doctrines of men." Many of us have graduated "Summa C*m Laude" from leading Universities and we don't engage in Isagogical, exegetical, categorical, hypostatic, hydrostatic, hypnogogic, hypocritical, kenotic, stenotic, or hypnotic nonsense to understand Christ. Our task is simple . . . follow His commands to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. Christ has taken care of everything else.
- we are to abide in Him (the vine) or be cut off?
Abiding in Christ does not refer to the believers legal position in Christ which is permanent and the result of the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Gal 3:26-28). Abiding in Christ refers to the believers day to day experiential rapport or relationship with Christ. In order to have spiritual production - fruit - good works - divine good, the believer must be filled with the Spirit by means of naming his sins to God as per 1 John 1:9. The believer cannot execute the Christian life in the power of the flesh. The flesh can only produce bad fruit. The believer does not cease to be a branch no matter how barren the believer becomes. The works done in the flesh are thrown in the fire and burned up. Paul explains this in 1 Cor 3:11-15. 'For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.
Understand that 1 Cor 3:11-15 makes it clear that it is the believers works of wood, hay and straw which is burned up, and that the believer is saved, yet as through fire.
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- many will say "Lord, Lord, did we not..." and yet He never knew them?
Jesus in Matthew 7:15-23 was a warning against false prophets, false teachers and was referring to the Pharisees who were doing works and who appeared to be good men who were teaching spiritual matters pertaining to the Messiah and the kingdom, but they were in fact leading others astray, and their false teaching was their fruit which was bad. Despite the fact that they might claim that they prophesized in Jesus' name, or had cast out demons, and performed miracles, (works) they did not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ who at the judgment will tell them that He never knew them.
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- the sheep and goats were distinguished from one another only by their works?
At the judgment of the nations, the tribulational believers and unbelievers will be separated. Now, in the tribulation the hearts of many will grow could because of the lawlessness which will abound (Matthew 24:12). Unbelievers will be characterized by their lack of compassion and unwillingness to help others. Believers on the other hand will produce good works. As always, the issue in salvation is belief in Jesus Christ. And as always both the believers and the unbelievers works will be judged.
At the end of the Millennium, a thousand years after the judgment of the nations which takes place at the end of the Tribulation, unbelievers at the great white throne judgment (Rev 20:11-15) will be condemned on the basis of their works just as the unbelievers at the judgment of the nations will be. And the believers works at the judgment of the nations will be evaluated for the purpose of reward. So as you should see, the judgment of the nations is no different than the great white throne judgment in that the unbeliever is condemned on the basis of his works.
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- no one who doesn't take up their cross and follow Him is worthy of Him?
And that is true. But no one is worthy of Him anyway.
Every disciple of Jesus is a believer, but not every believer in Christ is a disciple. But he is still eternally saved.
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- it is more difficult for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to inherit the kingdom?
Jesus' point (Matthew 19:24) was that the rich man who trusted in his riches could no more enter the kingdom than a camel could go through the eye of a needle. Yet, Jesus then says that with God all things are possible. Savation is the work of God.
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- the kingdom of heaven is like a man who sells all he has to buy a field containing a pearl of great price?
C. I. Scofield said that the pearl of great price is the true Church. (New Scofield Reference Edition, 1967 edition, p. 1016). This of course refers to the body of believers who make up the New spiritual species - the new creation (2 Cor 5:17)
John F. Walvoord said concerning the pearl and the church, ''It's formation occurs because of an irritation on the tender side of an oyster. There is a sense in which the church was formed out of the wounds of Christ and has been made possible by His death and sacrifice.'' [(John F. Walvoord Matthew: Thy Kingdom Come, p. 105) as quoted in the Bible Knowledge Commentary New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary, p 52.] The merchant who sold everything he had represents Jesus Christ who provided salvation for everyone who believes in Him.
I'm not sure why you included this parable.
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- "Go and sin no more"?
No one should indulge themselves in sin, but everyone stumbles.
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- "Today salvation has come to this house" to Zacchaeus after he demonstrated works in keeping with repentance?
Luke 19:9 is not implying that the act of giving to the poor had saved Zacchaeus, but that it was evidence of his salvation.
But contrary to what many think, it is possible for a believer to be eternally saved and yet not produce any fruit.
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- if we don't forgive others, God won't forgive us?
If a believer fails to forgive others, it is because he is harboring some mental attitude sin, such as anger, or bitterness, or jealousy, etc... As long as he is harboring these mental attitude sins he remains in a carnal state and can't be forgiven until he lets go of those sins and names them to God. Then he will be forgiven. If he then starts becoming bitter or whatever sin it is, he becomes carnal again and must let it go and again name it to God.
What I'm saying is the mental attitude sin which is causing the believer to remain unforgiving also keeps him in a carnal state under the control of his sin nature. To forgive the person in question he must get over whatever is preventing him from forgiving that person. Then he can simply acknowledge the sin to God and be forgiven.
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Are these talking about sanctification apart from eternal salvation, or are they talking about discipleship necessary for salvation?
Discipleship is not necessary for salvation.
Anything which pertains to what the believer does regarding his spiritual life after having been saved though faith in Christ has to do with Experiential sanctification.
Positional sanctification is automatic at the moment of faith in Christ.
Morning Mike. Sometimes your comments make me marvel. I am honestly a little undecided about you... On one hand, if you truly are a disciple of Jesus then my only concern about you is what others might believe from what you teach (I don't believe that believing as you do means you are not a Christian... What matters is whether you are obeying God). On the other hand, some of the obvious lies you speak make me wonder if you are deliberately trying to deceive people? I honestly don't want to think that. What I am more inclined to believe is that somebody lied to somebody else who lied to somebody else who lied to somebody else and so on... And then, without knowing it, and with all good intention and sincerity, that well-meaning person lied to you. And we know who the father of lies is. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I would sincerely ask you to consider whether you are continuing the cycle of lies, helping to pave the broad road to destruction or cutting back bramble on the narrow path leading to life.
Discipleship is most definitely necessary for salvation. Jesus never told his apostles to go into all the world making believers out of them. Even demons believe! He said make disciples. Really, Jesus' words are very plain. It breaks my heart to see how you (or those who have instructed you) have spun the words of the Lord to mean pretty much the opposite of what He said.
Steph I think it's great that this is a good discussion over this central important issue of soteriology. Christ transforms lives. We are called to be Witnesses (noun), edify the body, and to give a reason for all to why we have the hope that's within us. Part of this answer is "what does someone have to do to get saved". Very important for us to have this down real good.
I am in a similar situation. Many of my family seems very lost around me, and it breaks me in two. Some are responding. Others don't want to know. Some ignore the warnings (pretending they don't hear I guess.) They just have no idea.
The Christian's greatest Witness is our Walk. God bless you and I'm prayin for ya.
Thank you lee! God bless you too... I am praying for breakthroughs in the lives of those we love !!! Nothing is impossible with our great God.
For those of you who are trying to earn eternal salvation by keeping the Law. No one is or can be saved by trying to keep the Law. Romans 3:20 'because by the works of the Law no flesh shall be justified in His sight; for though the Law comes the knowledge of sin.'
The purpose of the giving of the Law was to show that no one can keep it perfectly. James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all".
Only one person ever kept the Law perfectly. And that man was Jesus Christ who came to fulfill the Law. Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Because Jesus Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Law, anyone who believes on Jesus Christ during this dispensation is IN CHRIST, and therefore is free from the Law. Romans 8:1 'There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3] For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin. He condemned sin in the flesh, 4] in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Those of you who have never trusted in Christ alone for eternal salvation, but instead are trying to work your way to heaven by keeping the Law which had as its purpose to reveal your inability to keep it, and which pointed to Christ, are working your way deeper and deeper into a dept which you can never pay. You owe God perfect righteousness. You can never meet that requirement. If you are trusting in your efforts to keep the Law for eternal salvation, and you die never having instead simply trusted only in Jesus Christ for your eternal salvation, then your final and irrevocable destination is the eternal lake of fire. The very thing you are working so hard to avoid.
The only way to have a righteousness by which you can have a relationship with God is by being credited or imputed with God's own perfect righteousness at the moment of faith alone in Christ alone. Rom 5:1 Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2] through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
How are you eternally saved? Acts 16:31 'Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...' It's that simple.
Who on the forum believes we are saved by keeping the law of Moses? I have never met one single person on City Data that believes this.
What is the point of this thread?
I hope you're not trying to tell us that things like confessing Jesus is Lord, and being baptized for the remission of sins is keeping the law of Moses. If you are, then you have a lot of reading and studying to do, my friend. These things are not part of the law of Moses. They are part of the law of Liberty.
Now let me tell you something. I have learned what I know from such doctrinally oriented pastor/teachers as Robert B. Thieme Jr. whose Isagogical, categorical, exegetical teaching became a world wide ministry. He graduated summa *** laud from Dallas Theological Seminary where He acquired the Biblical science of textual criticism and combined with his prior studies at the University of Arizona acquired a total of nine years of Greek and five years of Hebrew. He was pastor of Berachach church in Houston Texas for over 50 years. He is now with the Lord. I began learning from him when I was in my teens. I am now 58 years of age.
I now learn from other doctrinally oriented pastors, which I will list here.
I know what I am talking about whether you or anyone else agrees with me or not.
Well, such chest beating doesn't mean you have learned the truth, it only means you are well versed in a particular paradigm of study, the two are mutually exclusive.
A person of your age should have learned that by now.
maybe I've missed it , how or what is the definition of "law" in this discussion ?
love this question.
Mike555 believes that obedience of any sort is not necessary to salvation and that obeying any law at all is not a requirement (correct me if I'm misrepresenting your position Mike?)
I say that "law" actually needs to be carefully defined or else you run into all sorts of 'apparent' contradictions in the Bible. Law-keeping (the law of CHRIST) is both required by God, and enabled by His Spirit (people tend to focus on making it a requirement of salvation, but fail to recognize His enablement to obey!). I believe the Scriptures teach us clearly that the law of Christ (it is also called a few other things, like the law of liberty, etc) is the moral law of God which Jesus expanded on in scope and application, explaining to us the true meaning, and obeying perfectly.
Some problems with our translations these days are that the word "law" just shows up all over the show in the NT and seems to be used arbitrarily to refer to the same thing. Some translations are better than others at showing where "the Law" is in mind, versus "law". Furthermore, "the Law" can mean either the moral law of God, or the ceremonial law which was done away with in Christ's death. These distinctions are incredibly important, and Paul and others did not use the word "law" indiscriminately.
Your question actually requires a separate thread all of its own. lol
But it definitely has bearing on this discussion.
Who on the forum believes we are saved by keeping the law of Moses? I have never met one single person on City Data that believes this.
What is the point of this thread?
I hope you're not trying to tell us that things like confessing Jesus is Lord, and being baptized for the remission of sins is keeping the law of Moses. If you are, then you have a lot of reading and studying to do, my friend. These things are not part of the law of Moses. They are part of the law of Liberty.
Blessings,
Katie
Great points my friend.
This thread has boiled down to the issue of whether obedience is required for salvation - which I think is ultimately what Mike was driving at with the OP.
I just posted a comment about the use of the word "law" in the NT and how it can't be used indiscriminately to void the necessity of obedience! Do you or anyone else have more thoughts about the use of the word "law" in the NT??
How much Law {Torah} do Christians already keep ?
taken from pg 845 in the AENT {Aramaic English New Testament}
There is a common lie being spread around by many Christians that "the Law {Torah} is impossible to keep"which is mainly precipitated by ignorance of Torah There are 613 commandments in Torah, the majority of Christians are keeping about 201of YHWH's Commandments ,a much smaller group of christians are keeping as many as 275 of the Commandments.
However 221 Commandments are applicable only to the Temple and even if there were a Temple would apply to Jews only or people living outside of Israel.An additional 74 of the Commandments may not apply as they were given for judges,agricultural matters or are specifically for men, women,widows etc.
If we examine how much of the "Law"{Torah" that Christians are already keeping ,we come up with about 66-85 %
There are approx 94 Commandments being observed by Christian minorities.
The law of the Nazarite are voluntary so we could perhaps also include them as may not apply .This could raise our rates as high as 69-87%.
Can Christians observe 100% of the Torah that is applicable to them ABSOLUTELY !
Should they?ABSOLUTELY! In fact Mashiyach is the Salvation of YHWH who came to write Torah upon the hearts of his people and to raise up a Kedoshim {Set Apart People}.
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How much Law {Torah} do Christians already keep ?
