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Your question actually requires a separate thread all of its own. lol
But it definitely has bearing on this discussion.
it could at that .
The "law" as I've come to know it means TEACHING , INSTRUCTIONS
Torah, (תורה) is a Hebrew word meaning "teaching", "instruction", or especially "law". It primarily refers to the first section of the Tanakh�the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, or the Five Books of Moses, but can also be used in the general sense to also include both the Written and Oral Law. The five books are:
Genesis (Berei**** בראשית),
Exodus (Shemot שמות),
Leviticus (Vayikra ויקרא),
Numbers (Bemidbar במדבר) and
Deuteronomy (Devarim דברים)
most church goers want to say that it's a "jewish" thing and it's just not true... These were given long before we came to that seperation and were given to all the nations present , the "jews" just kept it alive while all the others were dispersed throughout the world.
Mention the "law" to anyone in those days and they would immediatly know you were referring to the "torah" or teachings of Moses.
it could at that .
The "law" as I've come to know it means TEACHING , INSTRUCTIONS
Torah, (תורה) is a Hebrew word meaning "teaching", "instruction", or especially "law". It primarily refers to the first section of the Tanakh�the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, or the Five Books of Moses, but can also be used in the general sense to also include both the Written and Oral Law. The five books are:
Genesis (Berei**** בראשית),
Exodus (Shemot שמות),
Leviticus (Vayikra ויקרא),
Numbers (Bemidbar במדבר) and
Deuteronomy (Devarim דברים)
most church goers want to say that it's a "jewish" thing and it's just not true... These were given long before we came to that seperation and were given to all the nations present , the "jews" just kept it alive while all the others were dispersed throughout the world.
Mention the "law" to anyone in those days and they would immediatly know you were referring to the "torah" or teachings of Moses.
Yes, it is abundantly clear that before the "giving of the Law" at Sinai, there was still a law that was known to all men of all nations. It didn't suddenly become apparent at Sinai that murder was wrong, for instance. Paul even discusses this in Romans, talking about the law written on men's hearts and Gentiles doing "by nature" the things contained in the law.
Now let me tell you something. I have learned what I know from such doctrinally oriented pastor/teachers as Robert B. Thieme Jr. whose Isagogical, categorical, exegetical teaching became a world wide ministry. He graduated summa *** laud from Dallas Theological Seminary where He acquired the Biblical science of textual criticism and combined with his prior studies at the University of Arizona acquired a total of nine years of Greek and five years of Hebrew. He was pastor of Berachach church in Houston Texas for over 50 years. He is now with the Lord. I began learning from him when I was in my teens. I am now 58 years of age.
I now learn from other doctrinally oriented pastors, which I will list here.
I know what I am talking about whether you or anyone else agrees with me or not.
Mike...
The only problem is that these people \ churches that you refer to have a reformed background....which some of the reformed positions are not correct.
The scriptures do not teach:
Millennialism
OSAS
decision theology
reformed's teaching of the sacraments (baptism and communion)
Lack of spiritual growth with the resultant lack of spiritual production or good works - divine good, results divine discipline in time and in loss of reward in eternity, but not in loss of eternal life.
Understanding that your eternal salvation is based on faith alone in Christ alone is an essential doctrine. Not understanding it has eternal consequences as in the lake of fire. If in the mind of anyone who has heard the gospel, he came away with the misunderstanding that he has to do anything except believe on Christ to have eternal life, then he has not understood the issue and if he dies without ever coming to a proper understanding, and has tried to earn his salvation then he is eternally lost. Eternal life is a free gift and is offered only as such. You cannot work for it.
As far as James is concerned, he was not referring to doing any kind of works to earn eternal salvation, but was talking about the necessity of spiritual growth with its resultant spiritual production by which means the believer is experientially justified before both God and man.
The dead faith of which James spoke was with reference to a useless non productive spiritual life. Not to a false faith which doesn't lead to eternal salvation.
If only people would come to understand the difference between the believers legal, permanent and unbreakable union with Christ, and the believers day to day rapport or relationship with Christ. The difference between Positional sanctification and experiential sanctification.
One of the Biblical Exegetical Commentators I've been listening to is Dr. Chuck Missler. He says pretty much exactly what you are saying. So I am aware of the "Partaker View" and think it's great. I am not 100 percent convinced obedience is not a requirement for the stated reasons in my past post. I don't think it's a "Work" trying to "earn" Salvation, but a expected response in response to the free-gift. Abraham obeyed not rebel.
It seems to me that there is one condition, and it's been hard for me to shake it.
Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Sometimes "if" could be translated as "since". Not in this case. In this case, it implies a condition. This comes up a number of places it seems.
John 1
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Receiving is a passive action on our part - born-again being a total act of God. What if the born-again believer walks after the will of the flesh and the will of man not the will of God?
to become - Strong's G1096 - ginomai 1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being 2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen a) of events 3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage a) of men appearing in public 4) to be made, finished a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought 5) to become, be made
Are they "in Christ" if they are still the old creature?
One thing that's been hard for me to reconcile..
Matthew 13
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Now which one of the these groups is Justified? Chuck, while he holds to the Partaker view, himself has said the "good soil" folks producing good fruit are the ones saved. Well if "stony place" folks endured for a little while, were they "born again" sealed by the Holy Spirit? Many passages seem to indicate one can't receive this message "with joy" without the Holy Spirit. Evidence being Israel's partial blindness (Romans 11:25) .
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
When they recognize their Messiah
Zechariah 12
9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
They recognize the Lord Messiah Jesus when the Spirit of grace and supplications is poured out upon them.
Another problem I have here.
John 15
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Abide - Strong's G3306 - menō 1)to remain, abide a) in reference to place 1)to sojourn, tarry 2)not to depart a) to continue to be present b)to be held, kept, continually b) in reference to time 1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure a) of persons, to survive, live c) in reference to state or condition 1) to remain as one, not to become another or different 2) to wait for, await one Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Is "Abide" present tense continuous? Help me out here. Sure looks like it is. What happens to those that don't Abide? It says if a man does not abide, he is cast forth as a branch and thrown into the fire.
A man (John 15:6)- Strong's G5100 - tis 1) a certain, a certain one 2) some, some time, a while
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Are people going to be saved outside the Kingdom of Heaven? This passage says that don't do what they hear of Christ's sayings will be outside the Kingdom of Heaven. Chuck himself, while he holds to the "Partaker View" as you do, comes to the conclusion these people aren't saved.
The reference to fruits, once again seems to be talking about who Christians are by their fruits/behavior. Jesus implies the Man, not the Work is what is being burned. Then the 1 Corinthians 3 passage seems to indicate it is the Work not the Man. Both Matt 7 and 1 Cor 3 are the building on the Rock passages.
One seems to say the Man is burned. The other seems to suggest it is the Work not the Man. Maybe 1 Corinthians 3 is just for those fruit-bearing Christians but the fruitless thornbearing professors are outside the Kingdom of God cast into the fire?
Just trying to reconcile this. The Lord ways we must Abide in him (the source of Spiritual life) to produce fruit. It suggests this is ongoing and continuous. If we don't abide, we are taken away. Where did they go?
It makes me think of this.
Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
Maybe I need a little help understand the Past-tense once-and for all Justification upon believing in Christ. The Scriptures clearly state that currently born-agains are Sealed by the Holy Ghost forever (the Lord)/"until the day of Redemption"(Paul). It does say the Lord's Sheep are in his hands and no one can pluck them out. There is one condition I see though with that. The Sheep come. It implies a response.
It's been tough for me to reconcile this. Any help appreciated.
The Scriptures clearly state that currently born-agains are Sealed by the Holy Ghost forever (the Lord)/"until the day of Redemption"(Paul). It does say the Lord's Sheep are in his hands and no one can pluck them out. There is one condition I see though with that. The Sheep come. It implies a response.
It's been tough for me to reconcile this. Any help appreciated.
I love your posts lee. Thanks for taking so much time to write them.
I have wanted to look into the verse about being sealed by the Holy Spirit as well.
I believe the word used to describe that is "earnest"... He is given as a pledge/earnest of our inheritance. I haven't honestly looked into it much further, but I will... especially now you mentioned it
Sheep are in His hands. What makes you a sheep though? Does that verse mean you are unconditionally eternally secure? My sheep hear My voice and know me and I give eternal life to them... It certainly doesn't seem like no conditions there... just a thought. Also, the question of "when" eternal life is irrevokably given is actually at the heart of the matter. What do you think? It was a total mind shift for me when I started to realize that salvation is not done and over when I repent and believe, but that I am being saved, and will be saved. What's odd is that this knowledge hasn't put me into some sort of weird legalistic bondage, but it's made me love God so deeply from the heart, and trust in His power to help me walk pleasing to Him... it's a paradox, but I'm loving it!
Morning Mike. Sometimes your comments make me marvel. I am honestly a little undecided about you... On one hand, if you truly are a disciple of Jesus then my only concern about you is what others might believe from what you teach (I don't believe that believing as you do means you are not a Christian... What matters is whether you are obeying God). On the other hand, some of the obvious lies you speak make me wonder if you are deliberately trying to deceive people? I honestly don't want to think that. What I am more inclined to believe is that somebody lied to somebody else who lied to somebody else who lied to somebody else and so on... And then, without knowing it, and with all good intention and sincerity, that well-meaning person lied to you. And we know who the father of lies is. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I would sincerely ask you to consider whether you are continuing the cycle of lies, helping to pave the broad road to destruction or cutting back bramble on the narrow path leading to life.
Discipleship is most definitely necessary for salvation. Jesus never told his apostles to go into all the world making believers out of them. Even demons believe! He said make disciples. Really, Jesus' words are very plain. It breaks my heart to see how you (or those who have instructed you) have spun the words of the Lord to mean pretty much the opposite of what He said.
The personal attacks had to start sooner or later.
I have already told you of those from whom I have learned what I know.
Despite your claims to the contrary, you do indeed believe in works based salvation - performance based salvation. You believe that you must do something, that you must obey, that you must put forth the effort to be a disciple in order to be saved. And that is contrary to grace, and to faith alone in Christ alone. Ephesians 2:8,9 says that you are saved by grace through faith, and not by works - not by effort on your part. Picking up your cross and following Christ involves effort. It is something that you do. And therefore it has nothing to do with eternal salvation. A person is eternally saved the very moment - in one moment of time - when he puts his trust in Jesus Christ. The continued obedience over time which is required to be a disciple of Christ is in contradistinction to the single point of time in which a person becomes born again.
You, as is the case with so many, appear to be completely unable to comprehend the difference between what is required for salvation - faith alone in Christ alone, and what is necessary to follow Christ after salvation.
You do not have a proper understanding of grace. Most believers do not.
If you were ever oriented to the truth, you have drifted off course.
King Saul was about as disobedient to God as can be. But when God brought up a vision of the dead prophet Samuel, Samuel told Saul that he would be with him the next day. Samuel was in Abraham's Bosom. And that is where Saul went. King Saul today is in heaven.
It is people such as yourself who promote salvation by works, and by obedience - the heresy of 'Lordship salvation,' who distort the gospel and muddy up the waters. And that is why I started this thread.
It is people such as yourself who promote salvation by works, and by obedience - the heresy of 'Lordship salvation,' who distort the gospel and muddy up the waters. And that is why I started this thread.
Gang let's not stir up the Heresy finger pointing which shuts down discussion but stirs up flesh, thorn-producing strifeful "works". Let's keep it in the Spirit.
Mike use your knowledge of Exegesis of the scriptures and respond to my post. No need to use verbal declarations. Use Scripture. Let's get down to the meat and potatoes.
Break out the Bible, Lexicon, whatever and let's stop screwing around.
Despite your claims to the contrary, you do indeed believe in works based salvation - performance based salvation. You believe that you must do something, that you must obey, that you must put forth the effort to be a disciple in order to be saved. And that is contrary to grace, and to faith alone in Christ alone.
Thanks for your opinion. Paul said he works with all the energy that God supplies, and that's exactly what I will do It is not contrary to grace at all, to access God's grace for help in time of need and to depend on Him wholly for the grace to obey, which in turn leads to the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Quote:
You, as is the case with so many, appear to be completely unable to comprehend the difference between what is required for salvation - faith alone in Christ alone, and what is necessary to follow Christ after salvation.
You're right, I don't believe that "faith alone" does anything for anyone. Can such a faith save anyone?
Quote:
You do not have a proper understanding of grace. Most believers do not.
I believe that grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and live righteously in the world. Sorry you feel that I don't have a proper understanding of grace, but that's what the Bible says about grace.
Bless you Mike, I hope you don't take personal offense to my statements. I don't condemn you, as I previously stated it is not someone's personal 'statement of faith' that determines their salvation. You can preach this, but still be an obedient, faithful follower of Jesus yourself. Your teaching might be wrong, but it doesn't mean you are personally not a disciple. I know many godly people who hold to this theology you put forward.
I think it is dangerous theology for the church as it can lead to licentiousness and false assurance of salvation for many.
Believers are free from the penalty of the law but not from its demands.
There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, but that does not mean that for believers it's now okay to commit murder, to steal, to covet, to dishonor one's parents, etc.
One of the Biblical Exegetical Commentators I've been listening to is Dr. Chuck Missler. He says pretty much exactly what you are saying. So I am aware of the "Partaker View" and think it's great. I am not 100 percent convinced obedience is not a requirement for the stated reasons in my past post. I don't think it's a "Work" trying to "earn" Salvation, but a expected response in response to the free-gift. Abraham obeyed not rebel.
It seems to me that there is one condition, and it's been hard for me to shake it.
Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Sometimes "if" could be translated as "since". Not in this case. In this case, it implies a condition. This comes up a number of places it seems.
John 1
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Receiving is a passive action on our part - born-again being a total act of God. What if the born-again believer walks after the will of the flesh and the will of man not the will of God?
to become - Strong's G1096 - ginomai 1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being 2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen a) of events 3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage a) of men appearing in public 4) to be made, finished a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought 5) to become, be made
Are they "in Christ" if they are still the old creature?
One thing that's been hard for me to reconcile..
Matthew 13
3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Now which one of the these groups is Justified? Chuck, while he holds to the Partaker view, himself has said the "good soil" folks producing good fruit are the ones saved. Well if "stony place" folks endured for a little while, were they "born again" sealed by the Holy Spirit? Many passages seem to indicate one can't receive this message "with joy" without the Holy Spirit. Evidence being Israel's partial blindness (Romans 11:25) .
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
When they recognize their Messiah
Zechariah 12
9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
They recognize the Lord Messiah Jesus when the Spirit of grace and supplications is poured out upon them.
Another problem I have here.
John 15
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Abide - Strong's G3306 - menō 1)to remain, abide a) in reference to place 1)to sojourn, tarry 2)not to depart a) to continue to be present b)to be held, kept, continually b) in reference to time 1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure a) of persons, to survive, live c) in reference to state or condition 1) to remain as one, not to become another or different 2) to wait for, await one Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Is "Abide" present tense continuous? Help me out here. Sure looks like it is. What happens to those that don't Abide? It says if a man does not abide, he is cast forth as a branch and thrown into the fire.
A man (John 15:6)- Strong's G5100 - tis 1) a certain, a certain one 2) some, some time, a while
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Are people going to be saved outside the Kingdom of Heaven? This passage says that don't do what they hear of Christ's sayings will be outside the Kingdom of Heaven. Chuck himself, while he holds to the "Partaker View" as you do, comes to the conclusion these people aren't saved.
The reference to fruits, once again seems to be talking about who Christians are by their fruits/behavior. Jesus implies the Man, not the Work is what is being burned. Then the 1 Corinthians 3 passage seems to indicate it is the Work not the Man. Both Matt 7 and 1 Cor 3 are the building on the Rock passages.
One seems to say the Man is burned. The other seems to suggest it is the Work not the Man. Maybe 1 Corinthians 3 is just for those fruit-bearing Christians but the fruitless thornbearing professors are outside the Kingdom of God cast into the fire?
Just trying to reconcile this. The Lord ways we must Abide in him (the source of Spiritual life) to produce fruit. It suggests this is ongoing and continuous. If we don't abide, we are taken away. Where did they go?
It makes me think of this.
Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
Maybe I need a little help understand the Past-tense once-and for all Justification upon believing in Christ. The Scriptures clearly state that currently born-agains are Sealed by the Holy Ghost forever (the Lord)/"until the day of Redemption"(Paul). It does say the Lord's Sheep are in his hands and no one can pluck them out. There is one condition I see though with that. The Sheep come. It implies a response.
It's been tough for me to reconcile this. Any help appreciated.
Lee, and Everyone reading this, please read it carefully.
The eternal salvation of your soul occurs in an instant. In a moment of time. In a point of time. The very moment you place your trust, your faith in Jesus Christ, you have eternal life as of that very moment. You are saved before you can do any works of any kind.
Having simply believed on Christ, you were saved without any works, or any obedience, except that you obeyed the command to believe in Christ. Acts 16:31 'Believe (Aorist Imperative Active. It's a command) in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'
Excerpt:
The obedience of faith spoken of in Rom 1:5 and 16:26 does not refer to obeying all that God has commanded. No one but the Lord Jesus has done that. Rather, it refers specifically to obeying the command to believe the Gospel. If you've done that, you've exercised the obedience of faith.
The Obedience Which Is Faith--Romans 1:5 and 16:26 (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1993/93july3.html - broken link)
What did Jesus Himself say about the work which endures to eternal life?
John 6: 27 ''Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal.''
He was then asked what the (works - plural) of God were.
V28] 'They said therefore to Him, ''What shall we do, that we may work the works (erga -Plural) of God?'' Notice that they asked about works as opposed to one work.
v29] Jesus answered and said to them, ''This is the work (ergon - Singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.''
Those who had asked Jesus this question thought that there were works which they had to do for eternal life. Jesus corrected them by saying that there was but one work (and that was a play on words). He told them that the work of God which would endure to eternal life was to believe in Him.
To believe in Him. To have faith in Him. And what is faith? It is nothing more than this;
HELPS Word-studies
4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pÃstis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peÃthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith. Strong's Greek: 4100. ??????? (pisteuó) -- to believe, entrust
To have eternal life, simply be persuaded by means of the gospel through the common grace ministry of the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ is who He said He is and that He died on the cross for YOU. At that moment, you are eternally saved.
I said earlier that Jesus had made a play on words when He called believing in Him a work. That's because as Ephesians 2:8 says, 'For by grace you have been saved (actually - you are saved - Present Indicative) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
Jesus Himself said as recorded in John 6:29 that you have eternal life simply by believing in Him. And to believe in Him simply means to be persuaded of who He is and what He did on the cross for YOU.
Furthermore, grace is the antithesis of works. Romans 11:6 'But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
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