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That's what I said. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
Ghandi again. I like him, too. But actually, the overuse of that quote seems to be just a thinly veiled reason for hate. It gives the quoter a self-righteous go-ahead to not get to know the gay person as a human being at all, but rather pretends to "love" him (or her) by urging them to give up their sin. In the end, however, you only see the sin, not the person you just pompously labeled a sinner.
Yu do realize that not everyone believes homosexuality is a sin, right? Yes, I know you have your book and you can quote chapters and verses about why this person's sin of homosexuality is far worse than whatever your person specific sins are. But that isn't the way of God, and it isn't the way of love.
Obviously, they don't feel that their attraction to people of the same sex is a sin at all. It is the way they are. Every gay person I've ever known has said they knew as children that they were gay. Now I could be wrong, but I don't think so--you really don't personally know any gay people, do you? I mean, had a friendship where you could have a conversation with a gay person about how he or she feels about herself or himself? How they felt growing up knowing that they were "different" and knowing that so many want them to feel ashamed of who they are? That would be love--getting to know someone, seeing them as a person, not a homosexual, listening to them. Forgetting about their preferred sexuality and seeing a human being before your eyes. Finding out that they long to fall in love and have someone in their life just as much as you do, but it's harder because they are attracted to someone with their own type of genitals, and so many people hate them for it. Or rather, hate their "sin", which in the end, amounts to the same thing.
Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 07-23-2012 at 07:26 PM..
Again, this is all from the perspective of an atheist, so feel free to ignore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948
by their desire for more membership exceeding their love of the scriptures.
Maybe their desire for more membership is itself an expressed love (and obedience) of the scriptures, namely Matthew 4:19. And even if one was to argue that the idea of drawing people to Christ isn't biblical, shouldn't it serve as a testament of their love for their fellow man? That they'd risk persecution from other believers saying "That's wrong of you" all for the sake of another person's soul?
Does that sound like anyone in the bible that you can think of?
In this instance, perhaps some churches are ultimately wanting to ensure that everyone (including homosexuals) remains with the church so they have every possible opportunity and inclination to turn their lives around. Such opportunity and inclination will not come from "the world" as it will from the church, agreed?
by their desire for more membership exceeding their love of the scriptures.
That's just retarded. Churches that have accepted gay people into their parishes always lose members who walk away. You don't get "more membership" by accepting gay people, you get fewer.
Ghandi again. I like him, too. But actually, the overuse of that quote seems to be just a thinly veiled reason for hate. It gives the quoter a self-righteous go-ahead to not get to know the gay person as a human being at all, but rather pretends to "love" him (or her) by urging them to give up their sin. In the end, however, you only see the sin, not the person you just pompously labeled a sinner.
I agree. However, my point was, I believe that was the attitude of Jesus (love the sinner/hate the sin). No?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
Yu do realize that not everyone believes homosexuality is a sin, right? Yes, I know you have your book and you can quote chapters and verses about why this person's sin of homosexuality is far worse than whatever your person specific sins are. But that isn't the way of God, and it isn't the way of love.
You're right, I do believe homosexual acts are sinful. And yes, I do believe Scripture backs that up. On the other hand, Scipture also tells us to be more concerned with our own sin.
*On a separate point, I wonder why you refer to the Bible as "your book". It appears you meant that in a derogatory manner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
Obviously, they don't feel that their attraction to people of the same sex is a sin at all. It is the way they are. Every gay person I've ever known has said they knew as children that they were gay. Now I could be wrong, but I don't think so--you really don't personally know any gay people, do you? I mean, had a friendship where you could have a conversation with a gay person about how he or she feels about herself or himself? How they felt growing up knowing that they were "different" and knowing that so many want them to feel ashamed of who they are? That would be love--getting to know someone, seeing them as a person, not a homosexual, listening to them. Forgetting about their preferred sexuality and seeing a human being before your eyes. Finding out that they long to fall in love and have someone in their life just as much as you do, but it's harder because they are attracted to someone with their own type of genitals, and so many people hate them for it. Or rather, hate their "sin", which in the end, amounts to the same thing.
This seems to be the key phrase to me, spoken by Jesus.
Quote:
Matthew 19:4-6
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
How could this possibly be ignored, or be taken to meant that man marrying man was acceptable?
Ok, love the sinner, hate the sin is fine - but clearly that cannot mean marriage of the same genders.
This seems to be the key phrase to me, spoken by Jesus.
How could this possibly be ignored, or be taken to meant that man marrying man was acceptable?
Ok, love the sinner, hate the sin is fine - but clearly that cannot mean marriage of the same genders.
Haha, can you imagine what would have happened if Jesus referred to same-sex marriage in first-century Palestine? Although there have always been gay people around, the whole idea of same-sex marriage doesn't seem to be even half a century old. Well, maybe it was in the minds of gay people, but not in the general public as it is now.
Another difference is that in Jesus's time, the civil and religious laws were one and the same. We live in a time and place when they are separate. Therefore, even though gay people can get married or have civil unions or whatever in the civil world, the churches are still stuck with wrestling over how to handle this previously non-existant problem of gay marriage. The only thing they've got to go on is whether such relationships are wrong or not. To many of us, it seems obvious that they are not. To many others, it seems obvious that they are. I don't really see this rift closing anytime soon, so maybe the question that has to be asked is this: Just how important is addressing the love between same-sex couples in the grand scheme of things? Ending war, fighting poverty and hopelessness, bringing comfort and hope to those in despair--are not all of these things far more pressing than worrying about whether someone's personal relationship is acceptable or not? I think the marriage thing will take care of itself. A church that rejects gay people is unlikely to be approached by a gay couple for such a ceremony in the first place.
Yu do realize that not everyone believes homosexuality is a sin, right? Yes, I know you have your book and you can quote chapters and verses about why this person's sin of homosexuality is far worse than whatever your person specific sins are. But that isn't the way of God, and it isn't the way of love.
That would be love--getting to know someone, seeing them as a person, not a homosexual, listening to them. Forgetting about their preferred sexuality and seeing a human being before your eyes. Finding out that they long to fall in love and have someone in their life just as much as you do, but it's harder because they are attracted to someone with their own type of genitals, and so many people hate them for it. Or rather, hate their "sin", which in the end, amounts to the same thing.
This is a tricky discussion as there are heated beliefs on both sides.
I have a personal theory on it:
If a Jainist informed me that meat-eating was immoral as it is essentially murder(Or any other vegetarian, for that matter), I would politely listen to them, thank them for their insight, and then go home and have a nice rice and pork dish. I would not be offended, nor would I care if someone I disagreed with on a moral issue thought I was wrong about something. That's what disagreement on a subject is. If you thought they were correct, you would be in agreement by its very definition.
If I was living in an area where I was told that I could still eat meat, but I'd have to call it 'animal carcass', I would shrug and tuck in to a nice minced animal carcass on a bun.
I respect other people's beliefs, even if I disagree. I just don't want them waving a sign in my face and yelling at me when I'm going grocery shopping.
You know, I wonder if there is anything biblical to answer this question. There's something about being fishers of men and then there's a lot about keeping yourself from sinning...
Oh well. Assuming there isn't, I'd say it depends on one's priorities. Which is more important, not "encouraging" sin (which again assumes that homosexuality across the board is a choice that can be encouraged/discouraged into existence) or keeping the lines open where God (recall that he's supposed to be the one who saves, not other people) can continue to speak to said person through the church?
Yes, the Bible does answer the question about whether or not the church or believers should condone sin in others.
Romans 1 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
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