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You are being very clear as to how you understand it. Your frustration is that some of us do not agree.
Those numbers, days, yrs are all true for what they apply to but they do not say the tribulation is 7 yrs but rather specifec times concerning certain events. Those are yours and others calculations to conclude the Tribulation is only 7 yrs and divided into two halfs. The Tribulation is not all about the last seven yrs, but rather all of the last days since the time when John saw the vision right through to the very end and of coarse some of what lay beyond this age.
Mike, I have heard this stuff of yours and others for over almost 40 yrs now and it does not add up to what the Word says. My ears grew Heavy until the Spirit lifted them with the Truth. I really do not want to butt heads with you as you are fine fellow and a fellow believer but somtimes you need to be confronted so that perhaps you might reexamin what you say even as you remind us too daily. LOL.
On this matter of the Great Tribulation, the Spirit agrees and blesses me over and over for speaking it. There are many other things the Spirit has not taught me on even though I have read it a hundred times plus. I try to stay from what I am not sure of and stick only to the talent/talents given me, and not what I have reasoned out on my own or what others say [but we all need to listen] because God knows anyone can reason scriptures to say almost anything nowadays Only the Spirit can teach and that over a long time so as to gain perspective and to grow in Grace and in the knowlege that will both save us and others.
Those verses clearly show that the last half of the Tribulation is 3 1/2 years. I have also related them to Daniel 9:27 which states that halfway through the week (a week of years - 7 years) the abomination of desolation will be set up in the temple. At that point, those Jews who have heeded the warnings in Scripture will flee to the mountains where they will be protected during the last half of the Tribulation - 42 months or 1260 days.
The Bible is clear on this. It is your understanding that is flawed. The Holy Spirit has not taught you that the Tribulation - the time of Jacob's trouble, has been going on throughout the Church age. Nor does He agree with you. What you believe to be true contradicts the Bible. The Holy Spirit will never lead anyone to believe anything which contradicts the Bible. The tribulation which the Church has gone though at times during the Church Age is not the seven year Tribulational period which Israel will go through once the Church had been raptured. But believe what you want.
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-17-2012 at 08:04 PM..
Because we all sleep in the grave untill the Day of Resurrection...
What about this verses that say we shall not all sleep?
1Co 15:51-52 "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
and this?
1Th 4:13-17 "But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Those who believe in the rapture are much like those at Nasa looking for life in outer space...There is none. Instead of looking for a place to run we should be taking care of this precious gift from God...rapture is the cowards fanciful reward.
It is not coward to wait on a promise that some people will not experience death... as the Scripture clearly promised in two accounts and more. Enoch and Elijah never tasted death. We were not to experience death in our original state before Adam and Eve sinned. Christ the last Adam redeemed us, therefore He promised that some of us when HE returns will not taste death. It may be out of this world but faith is believing before you literally see. Noah and his family believed and were saved while all the rest of humanity perished... I rather believe and prepare for His great appearing and be taken than be left behind regretting...
1Thessalonians 4:13-17
1Th 4:13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
1Th 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
and 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
It is not coward to wait on a promise that some people will not experience death... as the Scripture clearly promised in two accounts and more. Enoch and Elijah never tasted death.
.
This is so true, God has promised to deliver His people before the tribulation starts.
It is not coward to wait on a promise that some people will not experience death... as the Scripture clearly promised in two accounts and more. Enoch and Elijah never tasted death. We were not to experience death in our original state before Adam and Eve sinned. Christ the last Adam redeemed us, therefore He promised that some of us when HE returns will not taste death. It may be out of this world but faith is believing before you literally see. Noah and his family believed and were saved while all the rest of humanity perished... I rather believe and prepare for His great appearing and be taken than be left behind regretting...
1Thessalonians 4:13-17
1Th 4:13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
1Th 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
and 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The dead they sleep and know nothing. Oblivion it to be forgotten by man and by God. The idea that the rapture will be like some science fiction movie where people just disappear..that is not the way it is going to be...You will be "changed"...some of us have already been changed..and some of us suffer persecution and corruption at this moment. How do you know if you have not already been raptured..being born again is to be changed...Personally I am not the person I was 10 years ago...I am someone else now.
Death? He who fears it is not alive but dead already. The body will decay as we breath..we will age like a plant and flower then go to seed..then turn to dust. That can not be avoided...But with the power of belief ...It is possible you will continue for eternity- because your life is an eternity...You are already raptured...you were raptured from there - to here..prior the first death..which was you before conception..You were dead. The second death is just that- Your earthly death...and it will not hurt you- If you fear you will enter a hell...If you have no fear of this death- you will continue...it is a case of simple and solid unwavering faith- It is all you have.
Those verses clearly show that the last half of the Tribulation is 3 1/2 years. I have also related them to Daniel 9:27 which states that halfway through the week (a week of years - 7 years) the abomination of desolation will be set up in the temple. At that point, those Jews who have heeded the warnings in Scripture will flee to the mountains where they will be protected during the last half of the Tribulation - 42 months or 1260 days.
The Bible is clear on this. It is your understanding that is flawed. The Holy Spirit has not taught you that the Tribulation - the time of Jacob's trouble, has been going on throughout the Church age. Nor does He agree with you. What you believe to be true contradicts the Bible. The Holy Spirit will never lead anyone to believe anything which contradicts the Bible. The tribulation which the Church has gone though at times during the Church Age is not the seven year Tribulational period which Israel will go through once the Church had been raptured. But believe what you want.
That is not meaning of Daniel 9:27. There is no 70th wk. that applys to the last 7 yrs of the world.
That is not the meaning of Matt 24:15,16. It is written the Jews will no more be cast out of the land. They will not ever again have to flee. That abomination has already happened.
You got your history wrong and therefor great parts of the Bible wrong and it is plain to many. Jesus is coming back immediatly after the tribulation, not in some secret way before that time but at the last/7th trump of God. Every eye shall see Him at His return. The wrath of God that has been and being poured out is not harming the Church as they are not appointed to wrath. We are experianceing tribulation not wrath. It is written the wrath of God is manifest daily against all ungodliness but along with that His arm is still out stretched to save those who repent.
All things are working out for good for those who are called according to His purpose. The Jews were spared the wrath that fell on Eygpt because God knows how to do it and He is doing it in similar fashion today.
The holocaust was a horrible measure of the fullfilling of Jacobs Troubles and therefor a part of the Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matt 24, not the tribulation you and the scholars you have trusted in make it out to be. To say otherwise is to be blind to history and what Jesus and Moses said would happen. As Jesus said you can decern the weather but you can not decern the signs of the time.
What about this verses that say we shall not all sleep?
1Co 15:51-52 "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
and this?
1Th 4:13-17 "But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
So, it must have happened then...And the remaining people on the earth were left here for the past 2000 years and forgotten...So, as we die and eventually destroy the human race, we will cease to exist, or we will all go straight to Hell...Those that HaShem had chosen were taken back then and those left are all the unchosen and those that were raised from the dead back then were the saints spoken of that would precede those still alive, and the remaining ones alive were in fact taken up back then...And the unchosen were left here to propagate, war with one another, rape, murder, etc. until we finally destroy our race and resurrected in order to enter the lake of fire...
Those verses clearly show that the last half of the Tribulation is 3 1/2 years. I have also related them to Daniel 9:27 which states that halfway through the week (a week of years - 7 years) the abomination of desolation will be set up in the temple. At that point, those Jews who have heeded the warnings in Scripture will flee to the mountains where they will be protected during the last half of the Tribulation - 42 months or 1260 days.
The Bible is clear on this. It is your understanding that is flawed. The Holy Spirit has not taught you that the Tribulation - the time of Jacob's trouble, has been going on throughout the Church age. Nor does He agree with you. What you believe to be true contradicts the Bible. The Holy Spirit will never lead anyone to believe anything which contradicts the Bible. The tribulation which the Church has gone though at times during the Church Age is not the seven year Tribulational period which Israel will go through once the Church had been raptured. But believe what you want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by garya123
That is not meaning of Daniel 9:27. There is no 70th wk. that applys to the last 7 yrs of the world.
That is not the meaning of Matt 24:15,16. It is written the Jews will no more be cast out of the land. They will not ever again have to flee. That abomination has already happened.
You got your history wrong and therefor great parts of the Bible wrong and it is plain to many. Jesus is coming back immediatly after the tribulation, not in some secret way before that time but at the last/7th trump of God. Every eye shall see Him at His return. The wrath of God that has been and being poured out is not harming the Church as they are not appointed to wrath. We are experianceing tribulation not wrath. It is written the wrath of God is manifest daily against all ungodliness but along with that His arm is still out stretched to save those who repent.
All things are working out for good for those who are called according to His purpose. The Jews were spared the wrath that fell on Eygpt because God knows how to do it and He is doing it in similar fashion today.
The holocaust was a horrible measure of the fullfilling of Jacobs Troubles and therefor a part of the Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matt 24, not the tribulation you and the scholars you have trusted in make it out to be. To say otherwise is to be blind to history and what Jesus and Moses said would happen. As Jesus said you can decern the weather but you can not decern the signs of the time.
You are seriously misinterpreting these passages. Daniel's 70th week has nothing to do with the end of the world. And while the Holocast was a terrible event, it was not a part of the still future Tribulational period which the Jews will go through. In fact, the Holocast played a motivating role in causing the return of many Jews back to the land and the establishing of the state of Israel. There has to be a nation Israel before the Tribulation can begin. Daniel 9:27 speaks of the antichrist signing a covenant with the many (a peace treaty with Israel). That will be the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation which is Daniel's 70th week, the time of Jacob's trouble (Jer. 30:7). In the middle of the week (the middle of the Tribulation) he will break the covenant and put an end to the sacrifices and offerings which Israel will have been performing once the temple has been rebuilt. The antichrist will cause the abomination of desolation in the temple. That is the middle of the Tribulation (3 1/2 years).
Jesus warned in Matthew 24:15 that when the abomination of desolation is seen standing in the holy place (the temple), the reader is to understand that those who are in Judea must flee into the mountains where Revelation 12:14 says they will be nourished for a time and times and half a time from the presence of the serpent. A time and times and half a time is 42 months or 1260 days from the time that the abomination of desolation is set up in the temple, to the end of the Tribulation.
The Church must be raptured before the antichrist can be revealed. The Tribulation cannot begin until the antichrist signs the covenant with the many, and the temple must be rebuilt before the Tribulation begins, or possibly it could be rebuilt at the beginning of the Tribulation.
We are not in the Tribulation. None of the judgments or events described in Revelation beginning with the seal judgments have taken place.
Revelation is very clear that the Tribulation wil take place after the Church is taken from the earth. The general outline given in Rev. 1:19 makes this clear.
Rev. 1:19 "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
'The things which you have seen', refers to the those things described in Revelation chapter one.
'The things which are', refer to the present Church Age which is represented by the seven churches mentioned in chapters two and three. The seven churches represent the trends of churches throughout the Church Age.
'And the things which will take place after these things,' refer to the Tribulation, the return of Christ to set up His Millennial kingdom, the great white throne judgment, the destruction of the present heaven and earth and the creation of a new heaven and earth.
Again, 'the things which are' is a reference to the Church Age. Once the church has been taken off the earth in the rapture, then 'the things which will take place after these things', beginning with the Tribulation, will take place.
[quote=Oleg Bach;26142096]The dead they sleep and know nothing. Oblivion it to be forgotten by man and by God.
On the contrary... that is not what Jesus Christ informed us... the dead will go some place after they die...
Luk 16:19 There was once a rich man who wore expensive clothes and every day ate the best food.
Luk 16:20 But a poor beggar named Lazarus was brought to the gate of the rich man's house.
Luk 16:21 He was happy just to eat the scraps that fell from the rich man's table. His body was covered with sores, and dogs kept coming up to lick them.
Luk 16:22 The poor man died, and angels took him to the place of honor next to Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 He went to hell and was suffering terribly. When he looked up and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side,
Luk 16:24 he said to Abraham, "Have pity on me! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and touch my tongue. I'm suffering terribly in this fire."
Luk 16:25 Abraham answered, "My friend, remember that while you lived, you had everything good, and Lazarus had everything bad. Now he is happy, and you are in pain.
Luk 16:26 And besides, there is a deep ditch between us, and no one from either side can cross over."
Luk 16:27 But the rich man said, "Abraham, then please send Lazarus to my father's home.
Luk 16:28 Let him warn my five brothers, so they won't come to this horrible place."
Luk 16:29 Abraham answered, "Your brothers can read what Moses and the prophets wrote. They should pay attention to that."
Luk 16:30 Then the rich man said, "No, that's not enough! If only someone from the dead would go to them, they would listen and turn to God."
Luk 16:31 So Abraham said, "If they won't pay attention to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even to someone who comes back from the dead."
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