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I asked a pretty similar question awhile ago, aimed mostly at believers in eternal torment. Would it be better if God sent 10% to heaven and 90% to hell, or if we just died. Most, of course, didn't answer direct.
I don't know what the percentage/ratio of those in heaven and hell is, but, Jesus Himself, in Matthew 7:13-14 said that more people would end up in hell than heaven.
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So here's a similar situation. If God's plan is that 90% of humanity will end up in hell while 10% will join him in heaven, do you PERSONALLY (not 'what God would have willed') think it's better that he just didn't create us at all? You don't have to say you disagree or question him, but would you rather he didn't make anyone rather than send most to everlasting torment and pain?
The honest answer to your questions is that they (your questions) are irrelevant. Why does it matter what we prefer? When we piece scripture together how we want it to be, instead of how it's meant to be, we're creating our own religion and not accepting true, biblical Christianity. That's idolatry. It's placing ourselves in God's position and lowering God down to man's status. Most people who claim to believe in God have pieced that god together from what they like and don't like in the scriptures and how they want Him to be. They want a God they can understand fully and, so, they create one. The "heaven" they believe in is one of their own rules and admissions requirements -- not the scripture's.
The fact is, God is infinite and we are finite. People hate that. They hate not being in full control. They hate all the not knowing, not understanding, not comprehending, not imagining, etc., They want a god they can fully understand, describe, and label so they can put him in a box of their own choosing. (Again, idolatry...)
Contradicting the Bible's teachings on hell is nothing but pride. It's saying, "I can improve on God's plan." But, we're not wiser, more just, more holy, more loving or more anything. A lot of people try to "air-condition" hell with their own doctrines of it. All that does is ensure more people go there.
Why would you want to worship a God that you could totally understand? If you could grasp everything about Him, wouldn’t He be just like you? Exactly. That's why more people will end up in hell than heaven. They refuse to pay the price of leaving themselves, and the world, behind to follow Jesus. The narrow gate that leads to God (in Matthew 7) is one where you can't carry the baggage of sin and self-will, or materialism through it. The way of Christ is the way of the cross, and the way of the cross is the way of self-denial. Jesus said in Luke 9:23-24, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it."
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Also, does the idea of watching the damned suffer...as theologians claim Isaiah 66:24, 'they will look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me, and their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched' not matter at all to you? Why on earth would a loving God want his children to watch such a spectacle? It's like some eternal gladiator spectator sport. In what fudged up universe would anybody want to see men, women and children writhing in pain forever and would you not get sick of it? It's so ridiculous to even take seriously.
I have to admit, I don't fully understand this verse. Why would He? It comes back to God being infinite and wiser than we are.
What I do know, however, is that the time-frame spoken of in this verse is during the Millennial Reign of Christ (The 1,000 Year Reign of Christ, after the Second Coming, where Satan is bound for 1,000 years.
During that 1,000 years, the corpses of those enduring eternal torment will serve as a vivid reminder to everyone of the horrific consequences of rebellion against God. After that 1,000 year reign, Satan is loosed again for one final battle where he will attempt to deceive people and "win" them to "his side." Thus, the visual reminder of the consequences. There's one last battle ahead and this is a reminder.
Jesus referred to Isaiah 66:24 in Mark 9:47-48. It's a reference to the Valley of Gehenna where a continually burning trash-heap outside the city was a reminder of the never-ending pain of the lost. Once again, the Old Testament and New Testament mirroring each other.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him John 3:17
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us. Eph 2:10
The intentions of God have always been for our benefit, and walking the Way is abundant life.
John 3
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
False doctrine is exposed by simply expanding the verse.
2 Peter 2:1-18
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
But that He loved us....... His love is the propitiation for our sin. Why ? , when known and understood sin is no longer an issue between God and man and vica versa. Scripture ?.... No problem....Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
His wrath is towards sin not the sinner. God because of His great love whether you believe it or not is incessantly speaking to the depth of the innermost being of all men, not in condemation, but in persuasion of His great heart of love, for His desire is to see all men walk in the Way of God and live life more abundantly. See the world through the eyes of God, scripture reads entirely different.
Without Jesus' redemptive work, what would be our fate?
I don't believe in a conventional hell. I believe we make our own heaven and hell on earth based on our Karma. Until we iron our 'bad' Karma out, we cannot move off this planet but continue to reincarnate here. Then it's off to a different dimension.
I don't believe in a conventional hell. I believe we make our own heaven and hell on earth based on our Karma. Until we iron our 'bad' Karma out, we cannot move off this planet but continue to reincarnate here. Then it's off to a different dimension.
Can I ask what you're basing this belief on? How did you come to this conclusion?
“The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy” (James 3:17)
OBTAINING ETERNAL LIFE
When I woke up earlier than usual this morning, I had been dreaming about people who had been discussing the topic of death. Since I am 81 years old, the thought went through my mind that this was an important topic for me to be thinking about. I thought about the millions of people who have been convinced that if they believe on Jesus Christ as being the Son of God, they are sure of having been born again and that they will go to heaven when they die. The words of Jesus appear to confirm this belief in John 10: [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
I heard a highly respected Protestant preacher say recently that if we had ever believed in Jesus Christ as being the son of God, we can be assured that we have eternal life and that He has saved us from all our sins, past , present, AND FUTURE.
But the words in Revelation 21:27 stuck in my mind: “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.” And our Savior said in Matt. 10: [22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. And in John 8: [31] If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.
Jesus said in John 14: [15] If ye love me, keep my commandments. And St. John said in 1John:2: [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
St. Peter said in Acts 5: [32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them THAT OBEY HIM. Paul said further in Rom. 8: [7] The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
So what do we base our hope of eternal life on unless we have truly repented and have been given the Holy Spirit, having a mind to obey our Lord and Savior, and then being faithful unto death (Rev. 2: [10] Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.)
Jesus promised in Matt. 5: [6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. And in Matt. 7: [7] Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. And in Luke 11: [13] If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Last edited by Robert M Prince; 10-12-2012 at 06:16 AM..
Reason: To put words of Christ in red letters.
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be thinking about. I thought about the millions of people who have been convinced that if they believe on Jesus Christ as being the Son of God, they are sure of having been born again and that they will go to heaven when they die. The words of Jesus appear to confirm this belief in John 10: [27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
