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::Sigh::Those who think they are somehow "special" to God because of what THEY do instead of what Christ HAS DONE . . . cannot be swayed by reason and logic. They believe themselves special and nothing will deter them from that belief. It will ultimately make no difference to God . . . they will reap what they sow (as will we ALL). BUT they certainly can be a source of aggravation and even evil in the world . . . through their self-righteous beliefs and judgmental actions.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
I have to take frequent respites from this forum because it can be so disheartening.
I cannot understand the mindset that would allow one to be eternally joyful while thinking others are in torment with no hope of reprieve, EVER.
It is a savage and barbarous mindset . . . but its perpetuation and propagation is not their fault. It is the religious leaders and their institutionalized dogma for power and control that is responsible for retaining such ancient ignorance and superstition . . . despite 2000+ years of knowledge and enlightenment. I, too, need frequent respite from the forum. Your posts are a blessing to us all, Pleroo. God bless, my friend.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Tell me, my friend ... have you ever done evil? Haven't we all? Then why do you think that this passage is not speaking of you?
Because that I believe shows that God knew that I would prefer to come to the light to have my evil deeds reproved, even the evil deed of unbelief, which is why God had drawn me unto the Son.
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And why, then, do you think that God drew you since your beliefs say that you should not have been drawn?
I have no idea how you got that to be the meaning of what I was saying.
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But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Have you, do you, do things that are truth, things that are wrought by God? Because according to this passage, those are the people who come to the light. And why do you assume that not every single person on the face of the earth has also done things that are "truth", that are wrought by God? Why do you assume that not every single person will be drawn to God in light of this passage, just as John 12 says that ALL will be drawn.
We have to watch our wordings so may God help us to do this.
Not everyone will be drawn unto the Son by the Father. Everyone that has been drawn to the Son was drawn by the Father.
Taking what Jesus said about His crucifixion in how men can be drawn unto Him does not mean that at all since all men have not been drawn unto Him because not everyone believes the report when they heard the gospel, now did they?
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Sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say here. As you said, there is no "if" about it: no if about the "lifting", so no if about the "drawing".
I was sharing that the scripture said about why He had said what He had said, signifying His death, not signifying that every man will be drawn to Him to be saved.
One can say that those drawn unto Him as in all men in that respect, will be saved, but saying that all men will be drawn unto Him to be saved is ignoring the broader context of His message.
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I am aware to what you were applying it, but it doesn't change the fact that since Christ said that ALL are drawn and God is the one who gives the increase, then there is no reason to think God will fail in accomplishing to heal all people.
There are alot of reason to think that God will not save all people: in His words.
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Going back to the first point in this post. Why do you think ALL will not look?
Because they prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the light to be reproved of them. Yes: all have done evil, but the difference here is that those that died never believing even in the name of the Son did so because they had preferred their evil deeds rather than come to the light to be reproved.
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Christ promised that ALL will be drawn....
You are reading His words wrong, that's all. That verse you are referring to was about Him speaking what manner of death He would die from. The verse after the verse you had referenced, explaining the point and truth of that saying.
It was not a reference stating that everybody in the whole wide world will believe in Him and be saved. People have died in never believing even in the name of Jesus Christ. They are in hell now. Yep.
It is by His death on the cross is how the Father could even begin to draw men unto the Son. By the preaching of the cross, it is foolishness to those that do not believe, and yet it is the power of God in salvation for those that do believe, because the fact that they do believe is a work of God Himself.
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and it is God alone who "provides the increase" so it sounds like a done deal to me.
All those that seek, shall find. That is God's promise. That means all those that do not seek, but prefer their evil deeds are not going to be drawn unto the Son by the Father in enabling them to believe in Him. If that was not so, then there would be no need for God to make promises about those that seek.
Because that I believe shows that God knew that I would prefer to come to the light to have my evil deeds reproved, even the evil deed of unbelief, which is why God had drawn me unto the Son.
I have no idea how you got that to be the meaning of what I was saying.
Enow I'll just focus on the above so it doesn't get lost in a long post ...
You said that God only draws those who are seeking to be drawn. But your scripture clearly states that anyone who does evil does NOT want to come to the light. You agree that you have done evil ... therefore you cannot want to come to the light according to that scripture. And yet, you claim you HAVE come to the light. That's a total contradiction, if you can acknowledge it.
On the other hand, that passage goes on to say that everyone comes to the light who does truth -- those deeds of truth are wrought by God. Don't you see it? GOD is working in the same person who has done evil, causing them to do the deeds of truth which give them the desire to come to the light.
We ALL do that which is wicked and hate the light because of it. And, by virtue of the fact that Christ draws ALL to himself, we can know that God is working in ALL to do deeds of truth which will give ALL the desire to come to the light.
No percentage of people will go to some place of eternal torment, because that is not how the God who is Love operates. No, He draws ALL to the LIGHT.
90% of people choose Hell. 10% of those choose Christ. Simple as that. That's exactly how it was when God flooded the Earth. That's exactly how it was when God rained down fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gommorah. That's exactly how it's going to be when he comes again. It's up to you what you choose. There's no grey area. You WILL make a choice whether you like it or not.
90% of people choose Hell. 10% of those choose Christ. Simple as that. That's exactly how it was when God flooded the Earth. That's exactly how it was when God rained down fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gommorah. That's exactly how it's going to be when he comes again. It's up to you what you choose. There's no grey area. You WILL make a choice whether you like it or not.
It is a profound mystery to me how so many civilized people can so readily accept such a savage and barbaric view of God. Our ignorant ancient ancestors had no choice . . . but I can see no excuse for an educated modern human to do so. It boggles the mind. The silly "God does not change" mantra completely ignores the fact the humans DO change and their knowledge and intelligence applied to understanding God CAN improve our understanding of God. Rejecting such evil and savage beliefs does not mean God has changed . . . it means that we have matured spiritually as intended.
You said that God only draws those who are seeking to be drawn. But your scripture clearly states that anyone who does evil does NOT want to come to the light. You agree that you have done evil ... therefore you cannot want to come to the light according to that scripture. And yet, you claim you HAVE come to the light. That's a total contradiction, if you can acknowledge it.
You are still not reading how and why God does not draw them as this believing that is wrought is a work of God in the believer.
I, who have done evil, have been drawn to the light by the Father because God knows I want my evil deeds to be reproved.... as in God knows I want Him to deliver me from my bondage to sin and to death so that I shall no longer be seperated from Him.
Just as God knows those that do not want to be delivered from their bondage to sin and to death because they prefer their evil deeds, and so God will not bother to draw them unto the Son.
That does not mean those living that have rejected the gospel are on their way to hell. It may be later on in life, they will come across answers to the lies that made them not believe or seek to Him and thus the Father will draw them unto the Son to believe in Him to be saved. But if they died in unbelief, never having believed in the name of Jesus Christ, then His judgment stands: they had preferred their evil deeds rather than come to Him to be delivered from their bondage to sin and to death to be with God.
If you are still having trouble seeing my point, then read John 3:18-21 with His help.
You are still not reading how and why God does not draw them as this believing that is wrought is a work of God in the believer.
Yes, exactly.
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I, who have done evil, have been drawn to the light by the Father because God knows I want my evil deeds to be reproved.... as in God knows I want Him to deliver me from my bondage to sin and to death so that I shall no longer be seperated from Him.
No, no friend. That is NOT what your scripture says. Read it again, please:
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
"EVERY ONE that does evil..."
If you have done evil you had no desire to have your deeds reproved. You acknowledge that you have done evil, so unless God had done a work in you to GIVE you the desire to have those deeds reproved, you would not have that desire.
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Just as God knows those that do not want to be delivered from their bondage to sin and to death because they prefer their evil deeds, and so God will not bother to draw them unto the Son.
If it were true that God would not bother to draw those who do not want to come then NO ONE would be drawn because, according to your scripture, no one who does evil (and ALL do) wants to come.
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If you are still having trouble seeing my point, then read John 3:18-21 with His help.
I understand your point very well ... it is just that your point does not gibe with your scripture.
No, no friend. That is NOT what your scripture says. Read it again, please:
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
"EVERY ONE that does evil..."
If you have done evil you had no desire to have your deeds reproved. You acknowledge that you have done evil, so unless God had done a work in you to GIVE you the desire to have those deeds reproved, you would not have that desire.
If it were true that God would not bother to draw those who do not want to come then NO ONE would be drawn because, according to your scripture, no one who does evil (and ALL do) wants to come.
I understand your point very well ... it is just that your point does not gibe with your scripture.
Pleroo you are seeing close up what those in the past only saw in the distance.
they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. Hebrews 11:13
No, no friend. That is NOT what your scripture says. Read it again, please:
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
"EVERY ONE that does evil..."
Read on to the next verse to get the message in context of what I am sharing by His grace.
Let's start at the beginning of the reference of John 3:18-21 as I had given you.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Verse 18 sets the precedent for the context of the message between those that believe and those that believe not that are condemned.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Verse 19 & 20 is explaining that condemnation of those that believe not in why they do not believe.
This cannot be applied to former believers before they were saved, because this is explaining why non-believing sinners are condemned as going to hell after they have died. That is in context to the precedent set in verse 18.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Verse 21 is explaining why those believing has come to the light because his deeds are wrought in God. The fact that he believes is because of the Father drawing him unto the Son because God knows he wants to be delivered from his bondage to sin and to death to be with God forever.
Enow ... take it back one verse further and we will really get the context :
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Not 10% of the world. The world.
There was a time when you were not believing and you lived as one condemned. You didn't muster up the desire to go to the light (because NO ONE who does evil desires to come to the light) but you were given that desire by God. That same desire is promised for all people, according to your scripture, for since Christ was lifted up like the serpent in the desert (v. 14), he draws ALL men to himself. And this passage tells us HOW he gives that desire... by the deeds of truth each one does which are "wrought by God".
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Sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say here. As you said, there is no "if" about it: no if about the "lifting", so no if about the "drawing".
