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Repentence and faith in Christ. That's the condition all will meet, just like Paul and David.
From Psalm 22
All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the Lord, And
All the families of the nations Shall worship before You. For the kingdom is the Lord’s, and He rules over the nations.
All the prosperous of the earth Shall eat and worship;
All those who go down to the dust Shall bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep himself alive.
All without exception "go down to the dust..." and that's how many will "... remember and turn to the Lord.... and worship... and bow down before Him".
"All" in scripture does not mean all in total. It is always qualified.
God did not move Him to salvation. In fact later Jonah had a further problem with God and God did not ..... move him any further.
Right, but God caused him to make a certain choice.
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God can make a person do His will, but in the Universal salvation view God has no problem with people doing the most horrible things because He will change them later, so why not do bad?
This is a lie. In the UR view God has a problem with people doing horrible things... that is why the wrath of God abides on them. That is why for example David's son died. Because he did something horrible.
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Man then becomes a robot forever and Jonah did not.
Was Jonah a robot? No. Same thing.
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God forces no one to change, though He can force them to do His will in a specific instance, as he did Jonah.
Already addressed this. God causes... not forces.... was Jonah forced? No. But he was moved & caused.
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Repentance has to come from the heart, not from an outside force. If it does it isn't repentance.
This is blasphemy that man's repentence comes from within himself, independent of God.
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Who has God ever forced to repent? he has always let man choose.
Causes, not forces. I already gave you an example... Jonah. Another is Nebechadnezzar. No one on earth repents apart from God.
Saul and David repented on their own after being confronted with their error. In fact many who have sinned have.
ASV 1 Corinthians 6:9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.11 And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.
Now while many are doing such things they do enjoy it or ... they would not do it.
OK, don't repent like David and Paul and all those others, just keep doing it and God will let you until he thinks it is time to make you quit and live forever with Him. Right?. Not a chance.
The story of Jonah contains many prophetic shadows. His refusal to go to Nineveh the first time showed his stubbornness, just like a saved person that still wants to lead the way.
When he was swallowed by a big fish, humility came easily, and not only foretold of the death and resurrection of Jesus, but also foretold of the need for believers to die to self.
When Jonah was spit out on the beach, no doubt the people that were there equated this to being brought back from the dead, and this word spread fast throughout Nineveh, that a man had come back to life, even though that was only symbolically the case.
So as Jonah went into town, he received no resistance to his call to repent. God had sown the word of his story before Jonah, and they received it with fear.
But in the end, Jonah still resisted, and was angry that God didn't blast the place into infinity. In fact, he was SO mad that he wanted God to take his life! Why? This was a foretaste of our age and the Christians living now. Jonah wanted the people of Nineveh to be punished, and he was PO'ed that God didn't do it! The Ninevites were an ungodly people, so, in Jonah's eyes, why should they be rescued?
Ever notice the last 3 lines of the book of Jonah? It says: And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death. He was SO angry that He had Jonah's favorite gourd killed that he even thought that it was out of line for God to send a worm to kill the gourd. Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: God is trying to make a distinction in that Jonah cares more for a gourd than for the lives of the Ninevites. And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
God is telling Jonah that these people are a great people, a population of humans that God, in His wisdom, has allowed to grow into a city, even though they know not God. But Jonah, like the common Christian feels slighted and they DESIRE to see people that they believe are below themselves, to BURN! This is Christianity today! A self-centered group that thinks that they are special and above others! Instead of being humble and realizing that there are millions of reasons that a person may not come to God, they offer a token prayer to be said and never really reach out into the depths and depravity of their lives. The common unbeliever doesn't know his left hand from his right, yet the Christian passes on much like the travelers that passed on next to the injured traveler in the Good Samaritan parable. They say, don't touch me! Don't come near me! You caused your own problems! Get away from me you scum! You're going to burn in hell forever! They don't say it outwardly. but in their hearts, this is what they think. They don't know the intricacies of the Word of God, because they don't read it enough, and they don't know the personality and love of God. Most don't know why God acted the way He did in the Old Testament, and for that reason they believe that He is different from Jesus and a "thunder God".
And it's all a lie, and the real reason for it is because they have not separated the sin from the sinner, and they want both to perish. They want a church organization to go out and do the dirty work for them, while they put a few bucks in the offering and go to church and watch a video about how the 1% are trying to reach out. And many times, that 1% are ill equipped for the job at hand, because Christianity is permeated with the leaven of self-centeredness and guilt, and the teachings cannot go any further than the doctrines that the denomination put forth. So the direction to true maturity in the faith is obscured and cannot be found by Christian teaching for the most part. Thank God Jesus and our Father are not like that and many people are coming to realize the truth that God sent Jesus to cover Adam's sin for EVERYONE, not just the believers of the day.
It's time we realize that the Muslims, Hindu, Jews, and a thousand other religions along with the atheist, agnostic, and apathetic are from the same Adam that we are, and they are only in the spot that we were in when we were unsaved! Remember, Jesus died for us WHEN WE WERE YET SINNERS, not the other way around! They need our help and they need us to mature to show them the Way. They do not need our anger that they haven't been destroyed yet! How many people realize that especially the Christians of America need to repent after allowing our ungodly gov't to convince us that we needed to go to war in the Middle East 11 years ago. How many realize that since there were no WMD's, and no connections to 9/11 in these countries, other than that they "may" be harboring some terrorists, that we violated the laws of God by destroying these countries, and bombing them back to the stone age! May God forgive us! Yet this is the "Christian" mindset! How many of us have cheered when we saw pictures of this destruction? How would we like it if another country came here and destroyed everything around us without a legal reason? We should be ashamed! And we also should be ashamed to think that we would wish an eternal torment on ANYONE, even a Hitler or a Stalin. There is NO PROVISION for eternal torment in the law of God. Thank God that He follows His own laws!
Already addressed that... it says "all who go down to the dust..." which means all who die. That's everyone.
Gotta keep it in context,
ASV Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. ... 29 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship: All they that go down to the dust shall bow before him, Even he that cannot keep his soul alive. 30 A seed shall serve him; It shall be told of the Lord unto the next generation.31 They shall come and shall declare his righteousness Unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done it.
Believers speaking to those that become believers. Those who serve God and go down to the dust, thus "all" who serve God.
Right, but God caused him to make a certain choice.
But the people threatened with death, which Jonah wasn't, were given a choice with no coercion. Jonah's choice was to be obedient, not be saved.
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This is a lie. In the UR view God has a problem with people doing horrible things... that is why the wrath of God abides on them. That is why for example David's son died. Because he did something horrible.
Oh, so God does not give everyone a chance to live, some die forever because of the sins of others? The child died, but David suffered for a few days and God MADE him repent. Where did God MAKE him do so?
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Was Jonah a robot? No. Same thing.
Then each can chose to obey or not and if not, 2nd death.
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Already addressed this. God causes... not forces.... was Jonah forced? No. But he was moved & caused.
Splitting hairs. Either God makes/causes or he doesn't. He gives us a choice and does not cause us to do what we do not want to.
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This is blasphemy that man's repentence comes from within himself, independent of God.
Then God does not cause a man to repent.
Quote:
Causes, not forces. I already gave you an example... Jonah. Another is Nebechadnezzar. No one on earth repents apart from God.
And Jonah was not faced with death but the Ninevites were and god gave them a choice, but he did not give one who was ALREADY His servant a choice not to obey. See the difference. Jonah had already chosen God and the people of Nineveh had not and they were not made to, caused to or forced to.
Nebuchadnezzar also did not serve God he just acknowledged Him and kept right on worshiping false Gods. God did not make/cause/force him turn to Him at all
The story of Jonah contains many prophetic shadows. His refusal to go to Nineveh the first time showed his stubbornness, just like a saved person that still wants to lead the way.
When he was swallowed by a big fish, humility came easily, and not only foretold of the death and resurrection of Jesus, but also foretold of the need for believers to die to self.
When Jonah was spit out on the beach, no doubt the people that were there equated this to being brought back from the dead, and this word spread fast throughout Nineveh, that a man had come back to life, even though that was only symbolically the case.
So as Jonah went into town, he received no resistance to his call to repent. God had sown the word of his story before Jonah, and they received it with fear.
But in the end, Jonah still resisted, and was angry that God didn't blast the place into infinity. In fact, he was SO mad that he wanted God to take his life! Why? This was a foretaste of our age and the Christians living now. Jonah wanted the people of Nineveh to be punished, and he was PO'ed that God didn't do it! The Ninevites were an ungodly people, so, in Jonah's eyes, why should they be rescued?
Ever notice the last 3 lines of the book of Jonah? It says: And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death. He was SO angry that He had Jonah's favorite gourd killed that he even thought that it was out of line for God to send a worm to kill the gourd. Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: God is trying to make a distinction in that Jonah cares more for a gourd than for the lives of the Ninevites. And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
God is telling Jonah that these people are a great people, a population of humans that God, in His wisdom, has allowed to grow into a city, even though they know not God. But Jonah, like the common Christian feels slighted and they DESIRE to see people that they believe are below themselves, to BURN! This is Christianity today! A self-centered group that thinks that they are special and above others! Instead of being humble and realizing that there are millions of reasons that a person may not come to God, they offer a token prayer to be said and never really reach out into the depths and depravity of their lives. The common unbeliever doesn't know his left hand from his right, yet the Christian passes on much like the travelers that passed on next to the injured traveler in the Good Samaritan parable. They say, don't touch me! Don't come near me! You caused your own problems! Get away from me you scum! You're going to burn in hell forever! They don't say it outwardly. but in their hearts, this is what they think. They don't know the intricacies of the Word of God, because they don't read it enough, and they don't know the personality and love of God. Most don't know why God acted the way He did in the Old Testament, and for that reason they believe that He is different from Jesus and a "thunder God".
And it's all a lie, and the real reason for it is because they have not separated the sin from the sinner, and they want both to perish. They want a church organization to go out and do the dirty work for them, while they put a few bucks in the offering and go to church and watch a video about how the 1% are trying to reach out. And many times, that 1% are ill equipped for the job at hand, because Christianity is permeated with the leaven of self-centeredness and guilt, and the teachings cannot go any further than the doctrines that the denomination put forth. So the direction to true maturity in the faith is obscured and cannot be found by Christian teaching for the most part. Thank God Jesus and our Father are not like that and many people are coming to realize the truth that God sent Jesus to cover Adam's sin for EVERYONE, not just the believers of the day.
It's time we realize that the Muslims, Hindu, Jews, and a thousand other religions along with the atheist, agnostic, and apathetic are from the same Adam that we are, and they are only in the spot that we were in when we were unsaved! Remember, Jesus died for us WHEN WE WERE YET SINNERS, not the other way around! They need our help and they need us to mature to show them the Way. They do not need our anger that they haven't been destroyed yet! How many people realize that especially the Christians of America need to repent after allowing our ungodly gov't to convince us that we needed to go to war in the Middle East 11 years ago. How many realize that since there were no WMD's, and no connections to 9/11 in these countries, other than that they "may" be harboring some terrorists, that we violated the laws of God by destroying these countries, and bombing them back to the stone age! May God forgive us! Yet this is the "Christian" mindset! How many of us have cheered when we saw pictures of this destruction? How would we like it if another country came here and destroyed everything around us without a legal reason? We should be ashamed! And we also should be ashamed to think that we would wish an eternal torment on ANYONE, even a Hitler or a Stalin. There is NO PROVISION for eternal torment in the law of God. Thank God that He follows His own laws!
You are right there is no eternal torment. However God lets people chose to live or die. Most will chose the wrong path. Now I also believe in the resurrection and the vast majority of man will be given an opportunity without Satan to come to know God and obey Him. Again not all will and God does not force that.
Jesus spoke of those who were going to Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, and in Revelation God's word through Jesus speaks of the rebels when Satan is set lose. They are gone for good too. Not tormented, just gone like they had never been.
ASV Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. ... 29 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship: All they that go down to the dust shall bow before him, Even he that cannot keep his soul alive. 30 A seed shall serve him; It shall be told of the Lord unto the next generation.31 They shall come and shall declare his righteousness Unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done it.
Believers speaking to those that become believers. Those who serve God and go down to the dust, thus "all" who serve God.
You changed it from "all shall worship... all shall turn to the LORD..." to "all WHO serve God..." mangling into into the nonsensical "all who serve God will serve God".
Hi, I'm new to this forum. For years I aligned with the popular, orthodox doctrine that "all unbelievers, whether a mild sinner or a gross sinner, will be righteously judged, but then have their soul condemned to a conscious, eternal punishment in the flames of hell", or something close to that.
Then, through a special pastor/teacher I learned how to use a concordance (in this case, Young's) and discovered that the words in the OT (Olam) and the NT (aion) from their meaning and their usage meant "age" or "epic", if you will, and they are limited in time. God's plan of rememption for all mankind is set forth to be accomplished at the end of the ages (or epics) as set forth in the Originals.
Rom.5:18: means what it says: "By the offense of the one (Adam) Judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ's sacrificial death) to justification of life."
2 Thes. 2:8,9: A more literal translation: "..those that obey not the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
shall suffer age-lasting (aionion-Gk, the adjective form of aion, the noun) destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength."
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