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You are right there is no eternal torment. However God lets people chose to live or die. Most will chose the wrong path. Now I also believe in the resurrection and the vast majority of man will be given an opportunity without Satan to come to know God and obey Him. Again not all will and God does not force that.
Jesus spoke of those who were going to Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, and in Revelation God's word through Jesus speaks of the rebels when Satan is set lose. They are gone for good too. Not tormented, just gone like they had never been.
You preach another Gospel, as well, for there will be no more dying. Sound judgment tells me, that Christ has the power to abolish sin and death.
You are right there is no eternal torment. However God lets people chose to live or die. Most will chose the wrong path. Now I also believe in the resurrection and the vast majority of man will be given an opportunity without Satan to come to know God and obey Him. Again not all will and God does not force that.
Jesus spoke of those who were going to Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, and in Revelation God's word through Jesus speaks of the rebels when Satan is set lose. They are gone for good too. Not tormented, just gone like they had never been.
You are right that God allows choice. But He's ahead of the ball on everyone. He wouldn't be much of an all powerful, all knowing, all present God if He were not to calculate what it would take to work salvation into every person's life. It's all just a matter of timing. Some people, (or should I say, most people), will take more than a lifetime to accomplish their journey to righteousness. When God says that the different types of sinner will not inherit the Kingdom of God, it should be understood that once the sin is removed from the sinner, the person is clean. Then that person has the opportunity to grow into maturity and reach the Kingdom. No one ever said it was a closed process after a given time.
The verses in Revelation speaking of the return of Gog is to further refine the people of the earth at the end of the Millennium. During the 1000 years, those that attained the First Resurrection will be the judges upon earth. The Holy Spirit will grow until it covers the earth like the waters cover the sea, but it doesn't say that there will be no sin. If you have ever been around an outpouring of the Spirit of God, I'm sure you would agree that sin is far from your mind. So it will be in the Millennium, but at the end of the 1000 years, God will use Satan to instigate those that have not completely given themselves to God, and they will be dealt with swiftly. The judgment that will occur is not stated in great detail, but it will probably be death of the mortals, and they will then not have very long to wait until the final Judgment.
The Lake of Fire comes from the Throne. Daniel saw it in Chapter 7:9,10. It begins as a stream, but turns into a lake. The purpose of fire is for cleansing. It is the ultimate cleaner. Even the most precious things can be exposed to the fire, and the fire will separate the dross from the precious. The dross is what God intends to rid the universe of, yet we need to realize that this whole Drama of the Ages was no surprise to God; He wanted it to happen to develop humankind into the people that He intended. We have a hard time seeing this because the whole picture is too big, but it's true. God is not going to allow a single person to perish in the totality of their complete beings. He will clean it all up and use the lessons learned to achieve His ends. This will be the cause of more Glory to God than we can imagine! Are we to think that God cannot work repentance and salvation in even the worst of sinners? Having accomplished this will be something to talk about!
I once thought that a form of annihilation was the answer to this, but that would take away from the Almightiness of God. He truly is able in all ways! Humans have the ability to choose to be rebellious and ruin their own lives, but in the end, God has even pre-planned a way to traverse these seemingly huge obstacles. Nothing can take Him by surprise!
But the people threatened with death, which Jonah wasn't, were given a choice with no coercion. Jonah's choice was to be obedient, not be saved.
My point is twofold
1. There is nothing WRONG with God causing someone to choose A instead of B.
2. God causing Jonah to do that did not make Jonah a robot.
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Oh, so God does not give everyone a chance to live, some die forever because of the sins of others?
Where did I say the child or anyone died forever?
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The child died, but David suffered for a few days and God MADE him repent. Where did God MAKE him do so? Then each can chose to obey or not and if not, 2nd death.
Splitting hairs. Either God makes/causes or he doesn't. He gives us a choice and does not cause us to do what we do not want to.
"Make" tends to mean "forced against your will". "Cause" does not mean this. Can't you see any middle ground between FORCED choices and FREE WILL choices?
For example, if two people are angry at each other and one of them calms down and responds with love, humility, and forgiveness; will that not often cause the other person to lose their anger? Can't you imagine that God can teach people the errors of their way (with words, experiences, judgments) in such a way that their heart is changed and they are thus caused to repent?
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Then God does not cause a man to repent.
You misunderstood what I said. I said, it is blasphemy to believe that man repents independent of God. We are not born again by the WILL OF MAN. NO ONE comes the Christ unless the Father draws him. All whom the Father gives to Christ, come to Christ.
You said God does not cause man to repent:
Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
Hi, I'm new to this forum. For years I aligned with the popular, orthodox doctrine that "all unbelievers, whether a mild sinner or a gross sinner, will be righteously judged, but then have their soul condemned to a conscious, eternal punishment in the flames of hell", or something close to that.
Then, through a special pastor/teacher I learned how to use a concordance (in this case, Young's) and discovered that the words in the OT (Olam) and the NT (aion) from their meaning and their usage meant "age" or "epic", if you will, and they are limited in time. God's plan of rememption for all mankind is set forth to be accomplished at the end of the ages (or epics) as set forth in the Originals.
Rom.5:18: means what it says: "By the offense of the one (Adam) Judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ's sacrificial death) to justification of life."
2 Thes. 2:8,9: A more literal translation: "..those that obey not the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
shall suffer age-lasting (aionion-Gk, the adjective form of aion, the noun) destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength."
2 Thes. 2:8,9: A more literal translation: "..those that obey not the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
shall suffer age-lasting (aionion-Gk, the adjective form of aion, the noun) destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength."
Another was to look at it is this. Those who believe/teach sinners will be "tormented without end" believe a just God is never satisfied with the punishment of the wicked.
But He is. How do we know this? Those who will be cast into 'the lake of fire' will burn till they're consumed, turned to ashes, and 'be remembered no more.'
As I've stated in another post. It's the 'result' of the burning i.e being turned to ashes and be gone, that's eternal; not the actual punishment.
That's why it says "the wicked shall be as the fat of the lamb when it hits the fire." What happens to that 'fat?' It turns to smoke and the smoke goes up 'for ever,' and is gone, never to be seen again.
Originally Posted by Bick
Hi, I'm new to this forum. For years I aligned with the popular, orthodox doctrine that "all unbelievers, whether a mild sinner or a gross sinner, will be righteously judged, but then have their soul condemned to a conscious, eternal punishment in the flames of hell", or something close to that.
Then, through a special pastor/teacher I learned how to use a concordance (in this case, Young's) and discovered that the words in the OT (Olam) and the NT (aion) from their meaning and their usage meant "age" or "epic", if you will, and they are limited in time. God's plan of rememption for all mankind is set forth to be accomplished at the end of the ages (or epics) as set forth in the Originals.
Rom.5:18: means what it says: "By the offense of the one (Adam) Judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ's sacrificial death) to justification of life."
2 Thes. 2:8,9: A more literal translation: "..those that obey not the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ,
shall suffer age-lasting (aionion-Gk, the adjective form of aion, the noun) destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength."
Excellent, Bick. You are starting to reason out for yourself why the Bible actually teaches universal salvation and not eternal torment.
You're using your brain to shake up the status quo. Fundamentalists fear church members thinking for themselves more than they fear the fires of hell, which is why they're going around forever spouting, "Trust the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding" which really means "Don't think for yourself because it's dangerous to us church leaders."
Another was to look at it is this. Those who believe/teach sinners will be "tormented without end" believe a just God is never satisfied with the punishment of the wicked.
But He is. How do we know this? Those who will be cast into 'the lake of fire' will burn till they're consumed, turned to ashes, and 'be remembered no more.'
As I've stated in another post. It's the 'result' of the burning i.e being turned to ashes and be gone, that's eternal; not the actual punishment.
That's why it says "the wicked shall be as the fat of the lamb when it hits the fire." What happens to that 'fat?' It turns to smoke and the smoke goes up 'for ever,' and is gone, never to be seen again.
I totally agree that the idea of eternal torment has been twisted to the point where people think that it is the torment that lasts forever, rather than the flame. In actuality, it is the flame that never dies. Once the flame has done its job, the punishment and correction is over.
I tried to find the verse that you quoted, and I presume it was Psalm 37:20. "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."
I don't agree with the annihilation theory, even though I used to. I realized that this theory diminishes the power of God, and makes Him out to be a God that cannot finish the task that He began. The above verse from Psalm 37:20 is taken from Leviticus 4:34 of the Priestly instructions : "Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offerings, and the priest shall offer them up in smoke on the altar, on the offerings by fire to the LORD. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin which he has committed, and he will be forgiven."
The priests were representatives of God, and these instructions show how God wants things done. So the fat of the lamb is to be removed BEFORE it is offered on the altar. This translates to the removing of the sin, and the SIN is cast into the fire of the altar. God has the ability to separate the sin from the person just as Paul said that the Word of God can divide, (or separate), soul and spirit. Hebrews 4:12
The story of Jonah contains many prophetic shadows. His refusal to go to Nineveh the first time showed his stubbornness, just like a saved person that still wants to lead the way....
Many thumbs up!
As I see it... Jonah acted a lot like the elder brother in the parable of the prodigal son.
You are right that God allows choice. But He's ahead of the ball on everyone. He wouldn't be much of an all powerful, all knowing, all present God if He were not to calculate what it would take to work salvation into every person's life. It's all just a matter of timing. Some people, (or should I say, most people), will take more than a lifetime to accomplish their journey to righteousness. When God says that the different types of sinner will not inherit the Kingdom of God, it should be understood that once the sin is removed from the sinner, the person is clean. Then that person has the opportunity to grow into maturity and reach the Kingdom. No one ever said it was a closed process after a given time.
The verses in Revelation speaking of the return of Gog is to further refine the people of the earth at the end of the Millennium. During the 1000 years, those that attained the First Resurrection will be the judges upon earth. The Holy Spirit will grow until it covers the earth like the waters cover the sea, but it doesn't say that there will be no sin. If you have ever been around an outpouring of the Spirit of God, I'm sure you would agree that sin is far from your mind. So it will be in the Millennium, but at the end of the 1000 years, God will use Satan to instigate those that have not completely given themselves to God, and they will be dealt with swiftly. The judgment that will occur is not stated in great detail, but it will probably be death of the mortals, and they will then not have very long to wait until the final Judgment.
The Lake of Fire comes from the Throne. Daniel saw it in Chapter 7:9,10. It begins as a stream, but turns into a lake. The purpose of fire is for cleansing. It is the ultimate cleaner. Even the most precious things can be exposed to the fire, and the fire will separate the dross from the precious. The dross is what God intends to rid the universe of, yet we need to realize that this whole Drama of the Ages was no surprise to God; He wanted it to happen to develop humankind into the people that He intended. We have a hard time seeing this because the whole picture is too big, but it's true. God is not going to allow a single person to perish in the totality of their complete beings. He will clean it all up and use the lessons learned to achieve His ends. This will be the cause of more Glory to God than we can imagine! Are we to think that God cannot work repentance and salvation in even the worst of sinners? Having accomplished this will be something to talk about!
I once thought that a form of annihilation was the answer to this, but that would take away from the Almightiness of God. He truly is able in all ways! Humans have the ability to choose to be rebellious and ruin their own lives, but in the end, God has even pre-planned a way to traverse these seemingly huge obstacles. Nothing can take Him by surprise!
Now you have God working, removing sin, etc. In other words we have no choice, he makes us. Not what the Bible teaches. If God had everything preplanned, Adam would not have sinned, because bringing sin into the world and billions of innocents suffering is NOT love and God IS love. God knew Afdam could sin, but not that he would sin. He left the choice up to Adam. Your assumption that God knows everything rather than he can if HE chooses is at the root of the problem. Many times God allowed choice and even indicated he did not know the final choice being made. He is not bound by your definitions or mine, rather His own.
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