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[/b] GCS, I think a lot of your inability to understand giving and tithing lies in your above quote!
I'm not sure if you misunderstood my post or not, but I can accept that people want to worship god, I really can. I don't want to, but I can accept that people do. What I don't get is how people can be goaded into giving money to the church based on a passage in the OT while other passages are conveniently ignored as "not the new law". If you want to give money because you want to build a better place of worship, I don't have a problem with that. It's no different than putting money forward for your kids to have a better baseball field. HOWEVER, it's how the funds are appropriated which is what would worry me.
I'm not sure if you misunderstood my post or not, but I can accept that people want to worship god, I really can. I don't want to, but I can accept that people do. What I don't get is how people can be goaded into giving money to the church based on a passage in the OT while other passages are conveniently ignored as "not the new law". If you want to give money because you want to build a better place of worship, I don't have a problem with that. It's no different than putting money forward for your kids to have a better baseball field. HOWEVER, it's how the funds are appropriated which is what would worry me.
Well, sorry about my little "dig" GCS, but you have spoken many times about Christians giving money to the church and I realize you have issues with it. But I truly wonder if you wouldn't have less issues with it if you were a believer.
We need to responsibly give money, not just turn a blind eye to leadership's appropriation of it, but at the end of the day, at some level we have to trust our leadership enough to not feel that they are "goading us out of our money" and that they can be trusted to wisely appropriate it. If we have a serious doubt about this, it may be time to confront about it and/or move on.
Frankly, as I get older (and kaykay's getting on up there!) and I reflect back on the money which my husband and I have given/spent/wasted over the years, I truly see the money we've given to the church as being the most well invested, and I'm happy that we gave it.
Last edited by kaykay; 10-18-2007 at 08:02 AM..
Reason: add a thought ...
Well, sorry about my little "dig" GCS, but you have spoken many times about Christians giving money to the church and I realize you have issues with it. But I truly wonder if you wouldn't have less issues with it if you were a believer.
We need to responsibly give money, not just turn a blind eye to leadership's appropriation of it, but at the end of the day, at some level we have to trust our leadership enough to not feel that they are "goading us out of our money" and that they can be trusted to wisely appropriate it. If we have a serious doubt about this, it may be time to confront about it and/or move on.
Frankly, as I get older (and kaykay's getting on up there!) and I reflect back on the money which my husband and I have given/spent/wasted over the years, I truly see the money we've given to the church as being the most well invested, and I'm happy that we gave it.
As far as me being believing, how would I feel? I think I mentioned this a LONG time ago on this board, but I remember when my parents were trying to be somewhat active in the church because we were all young kids, they had a priest drop by one day. They had been attending a Catholic church for a few months and the priest said he wanted to check on things. I remember my parents inviting him into the house and it wasn't 5 minutes until he started explaining that the Church needed 17% of my parents' pay for the next 5 years so they could build a new church with all of the amenities.
When my parents said they couldn't afford it, I'll never forget him telling my Dad that our (our entire family, that is) salvation was at stake. That if we did not give the church the money that God would see this as negative and may possibly hold it against us. I couldn't have been more than 8 or 9 years old? And yet, I was scared. I didn't want to go to hell, but this man, this minister of faith who I trusted actually had me feeling as if something was at stake. Thankfully, it was my Dad and not me who had to make the decision at the time. I thought he was going to punch the guy in the jaw.
But, regardless, this is just something that perhaps brought my skepticism in the church out in me from a young age. I started to wonder why God would hold it against my family if they couldn't afford something. And yet, I have never, and still don't, recall anywhere where the Bible says you have to give to the church or else...
Do all churches require 17%? I honestly don't know. But I do know it was rare if ever that my family ever stepped foot inside another church again. So, forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical of the church and what it does with money. I know a lot of you Christians don't feel as if the Catholic church is a valid form of Christianity anyway, but I must say, it is one of the first, and by far the longest lasting version of Christianity, so it seems to me that certain things within other Christian faiths must be based on it as well.
One other thing that I cannot stand. Why do people feel it is necessary to go to work and ask for money for a church bake sale or a church this or that? Why can't it just be a bake sale? Why does the word "church" have to come up with it? Is this a play on our guilty conscience if we do not donate? I have been hit up three times this week at work with "Hey want to buy some cookies for our church?" Why can't it just be "Want to buy some cookies?" This seems odd to me, it seems that churches have the ability to play off the fear of god and make one feel guilty for not doing something. It's the greatest sales pitch in all of human history.
As far as me being believing, how would I feel? I think I mentioned this a LONG time ago on this board, but I remember when my parents were trying to be somewhat active in the church because we were all young kids, they had a priest drop by one day. They had been attending a Catholic church for a few months and the priest said he wanted to check on things. I remember my parents inviting him into the house and it wasn't 5 minutes until he started explaining that the Church needed 17% of my parents' pay for the next 5 years so they could build a new church with all of the amenities.
When my parents said they couldn't afford it, I'll never forget him telling my Dad that our (our entire family, that is) salvation was at stake. That if we did not give the church the money that God would see this as negative and may possibly hold it against us. I couldn't have been more than 8 or 9 years old? And yet, I was scared. I didn't want to go to hell, but this man, this minister of faith who I trusted actually had me feeling as if something was at stake. Thankfully, it was my Dad and not me who had to make the decision at the time. I thought he was going to punch the guy in the jaw.
But, regardless, this is just something that perhaps brought my skepticism in the church out in me from a young age. I started to wonder why God would hold it against my family if they couldn't afford something. And yet, I have never, and still don't, recall anywhere where the Bible says you have to give to the church or else...
Do all churches require 17%? I honestly don't know. But I do know it was rare if ever that my family ever stepped foot inside another church again. So, forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical of the church and what it does with money. I know a lot of you Christians don't feel as if the Catholic church is a valid form of Christianity anyway, but I must say, it is one of the first, and by far the longest lasting version of Christianity, so it seems to me that certain things within other Christian faiths must be based on it as well.
One other thing that I cannot stand. Why do people feel it is necessary to go to work and ask for money for a church bake sale or a church this or that? Why can't it just be a bake sale? Why does the word "church" have to come up with it? Is this a play on our guilty conscience if we do not donate? I have been hit up three times this week at work with "Hey want to buy some cookies for our church?" Why can't it just be "Want to buy some cookies?" This seems odd to me, it seems that churches have the ability to play off the fear of god and make one feel guilty for not doing something. It's the greatest sales pitch in all of human history.
I think within all denominations you will have good and bad experiences.
I've only had good ones, thankfully. When I was little we recieved free tuition from Catholic school because we were poor, we got food baskets at the holidays, and gifts at Christmas....we were the beneficieries of the monies collected from others...so I have always given to others when I can...I figure it's my turn and all.
As far as me being believing, how would I feel? I think I mentioned this a LONG time ago on this board, but I remember when my parents were trying to be somewhat active in the church because we were all young kids, they had a priest drop by one day. They had been attending a Catholic church for a few months and the priest said he wanted to check on things. I remember my parents inviting him into the house and it wasn't 5 minutes until he started explaining that the Church needed 17% of my parents' pay for the next 5 years so they could build a new church with all of the amenities.
When my parents said they couldn't afford it, I'll never forget him telling my Dad that our (our entire family, that is) salvation was at stake. That if we did not give the church the money that God would see this as negative and may possibly hold it against us. I couldn't have been more than 8 or 9 years old? And yet, I was scared. I didn't want to go to hell, but this man, this minister of faith who I trusted actually had me feeling as if something was at stake. Thankfully, it was my Dad and not me who had to make the decision at the time. I thought he was going to punch the guy in the jaw.
But, regardless, this is just something that perhaps brought my skepticism in the church out in me from a young age. I started to wonder why God would hold it against my family if they couldn't afford something. And yet, I have never, and still don't, recall anywhere where the Bible says you have to give to the church or else...
Do all churches require 17%? I honestly don't know. But I do know it was rare if ever that my family ever stepped foot inside another church again. So, forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical of the church and what it does with money. I know a lot of you Christians don't feel as if the Catholic church is a valid form of Christianity anyway, but I must say, it is one of the first, and by far the longest lasting version of Christianity, so it seems to me that certain things within other Christian faiths must be based on it as well.
One other thing that I cannot stand. Why do people feel it is necessary to go to work and ask for money for a church bake sale or a church this or that? Why can't it just be a bake sale? Why does the word "church" have to come up with it? Is this a play on our guilty conscience if we do not donate? I have been hit up three times this week at work with "Hey want to buy some cookies for our church?" Why can't it just be "Want to buy some cookies?" This seems odd to me, it seems that churches have the ability to play off the fear of god and make one feel guilty for not doing something. It's the greatest sales pitch in all of human history.
Troop, if that 'priest' told you that 17% of your family's income was somehow tied to your salvation you, my friend, met a false teacher.
And he did exactly what false teachers do. Lead people away from God, rather than to him.
I'm sorry this happened to you and your family and I understand your bitterness and skepticism.
GCSTROOP, that was not a man of God and didn't having any business being in the priesthood. That is the most ludicrous thing that your family's salvation could be at stake unless you gave a certain percentage of money.
All tithing(which means 10 percent) to the church should come from the heart of a person and not from somebody trying to put the fear of God in somebody.
GCSTROOP, that was not a man of God and didn't having any business being in the priesthood. That is the most ludicrous thing that your family's salvation could be at stake unless you gave a certain percentage of money.
All tithing(which means 10 percent) to the church should come from the heart of a person and not from somebody trying to put the fear of God in somebody.
You know, in all honesty though, and again not to strike at just the Catholics, I have heard of such things with the Catholic church other than just this incident. Up until not very long ago (perhaps 100 years?) the Catholic church gave people the opportunity to give the church money in order to buy them a few extra years outside purgatory. I'm not sure what the going rate was, but essentially, based on the dollar value you gave the church they had some equation in which you would spend less time in purgatory as a result. i.e- Your original time in purgatory was supposed to be 200 years, you pay a couple thousand bucks and it knocks it down to 180 or so. I honestly can't remember what the church called it, but it's a true fact. But, you see, that's my whole point. I think one has to look at the ENTIRE history of the church or denomination they belong to before they donate money to it. Because a church that preaches ever changing morals seems to be doing it out of a need to economically survive. That's what I'm getting at. The Protestants in England had no problem condemning Catholics to their deaths 400 years ago. However, that has since changed with the Protestant religion. Why? Because it's no longer morally acceptable to kill people in the name of God. So the church changes it. Does this not seem like a moral conundrum to some people? How can one donate money to an organization that clearly has ever-changing principles? What if those principles change 100 years from now? What if gay marriage is considered acceptable by all religions 100 years from now? Your contributions today help dictate those ever changing moralities within the church. Do you see what I'm saying?
You know, in all honesty though, and again not to strike at just the Catholics, I have heard of such things with the Catholic church other than just this incident. Up until not very long ago (perhaps 100 years?) the Catholic church gave people the opportunity to give the church money in order to buy them a few extra years outside purgatory. I'm not sure what the going rate was, but essentially, based on the dollar value you gave the church they had some equation in which you would spend less time in purgatory as a result. i.e- Your original time in purgatory was supposed to be 200 years, you pay a couple thousand bucks and it knocks it down to 180 or so. I honestly can't remember what the church called it, but it's a true fact. But, you see, that's my whole point. I think one has to look at the ENTIRE history of the church or denomination they belong to before they donate money to it. Because a church that preaches ever changing morals seems to be doing it out of a need to economically survive. That's what I'm getting at. The Protestants in England had no problem condemning Catholics to their deaths 400 years ago. However, that has since changed with the Protestant religion. Why? Because it's no longer morally acceptable to kill people in the name of God. So the church changes it. Does this not seem like a moral conundrum to some people? How can one donate money to an organization that clearly has ever-changing principles? What if those principles change 100 years from now? What if gay marriage is considered acceptable by all religions 100 years from now? Your contributions today help dictate those ever changing moralities within the church. Do you see what I'm saying?
Officially the church doesn't accept money for indulgence (which is the term you were searching for) but prior to the Council of Trent there was a pope that did for the rebuilding of The Basillica...big no no. I'm not saying that you are wrong in that some unscrupulous priests, bishops or whatevers have abused this teaching to get money out of people more recently but it was not condoned by the actual teachings of the church. The priest you encountered as a child was definitely abusing your family, and not a man of God. Other denomonations have had their woes with corrupt money raising not just the Catholics. The Catholics are as you said the oldest church around and IMO it makes them look worse when they color outside the lines because we expect more from them to begin with.
So, why should anyone spend hard earned money to build mega churches and defend pedophile priests?
How about you give 10% of your money to cancer research, or an animal shelter?
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