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Personally I do not like to 'argue away passages' but prefer to understand them. There is no doubt Paul expected the coming of Christ during the lifetimes of those he wrote to. The word "coming" is the Greek word "parousia" which is better understood as "presence".
For me to understand verses I try to use the whole counsel of God, that is I like to consider everything about the topic at hand. After doing so one can see that Paul clearly did not believe there would be a physical resurrection of flesh and bone bodies. And even in the passage here he claimed the Lord would come "with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" which are all phrases with spiritual meanings, not literal physical phrases that people are going to hear.
The last trump of God sounded in 70AD.
The "parousia" referred to is the fact that the Living Word of God now abides with us as His Holy Spirit within our consciousness to guide us to what God has "written in our hearts." Christ is among us ALL NOW and has been since His crucifixion and rebirth as Spirit.
In all sincerity, I want to say this is something very confronting to me at the moment. It may not affect you, but it questions the very validity of what Jesus said in the gospels. So if you prefer not to examine, do not read on. It is extremely confronting to my faith at the moment, and i can honestly say I'm not sure if I believe anymore at all. I might not even believe, but a part of me is refusing to let go. i admit a part of it is the fear that has been drilled into me all these years, it makes me curse my birth and my upbringing at times. Also, I desperately want something more than this life. I find this life full of pain and misery, with nothing to look forward to, and I'd find the atheist scenario of nothing after this life equally nightmarish. It's no use to say 'enjoy this life' when I find the world an ugly, cold place. I don't want to admit this to my parents or anyone else, for fear they will be concerned for my soul that I might burn in hell for all eternity. Oh the joys of being raised in orthodox/fundamentalist Christianity...
I'm sure anyone familiar with the NT are familiar with all Jesus' 'second coming' prediction texts in all the gospels. I won't specify them all. It does indeed appear that Jesus predicted his soon return, unless you interpret it another way or interpret the 'coming' as another something different to the universal 'end of the age.' I've also heard the various explanations (you'd have to go into each verse). E.g. that it refers to the glorification of Jesus (I know there's a specific term but it escapes me), that generation is not a literal generation.etc. Doesn't the fact asked those he was speaking to AT THE TIME to watch out for the Lord's coming for the day and hour is unknown and it will come as a thief in the night.
Now up to this point, all I could do was go by the above explanations. The alternative, of course, was to admit that Jesus was simply wrong. C.S. Lewis was one who felt forced to accept this conclusion, but I never really felt comfortable with it. While the disciplines and early followers might have expected his soon return, I always thought perhaps they misinterpreted Jesus' words. This, I can only imagine, is the only other alternative. Now, however, it seems we have to put Paul in that category. Paul was supposedly inspired by God, so if he was mistaken, can we trust him?
Here's the verse in question:
4 Thessalonions 4:15-17
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of the God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together in them in the in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
How do you argue away this passage? In the expositions about Jesus' apparent failed/unfulfilled prophecies about his second coming, I seldom see it raised. Does it not show that Paul believed in a liberal, physical return of Christ, and a physical resurrection in the lifetime of those he wrote to, the Church at Thessalonica? If so, Paul himself believed this, and there's no way to argue that generation doesn't mean 40 years, or that those standing here would not taste death before seeing the second coming.
The huge BUT, however is...if this was bleedingly obvious, how did Christianity continue after this? If Jesus' second coming was plainly unfulfilled, how did Christianity grow and thrive? Were the gospels freely available to all say after 150 AD? I know little about early Church history so it's all conjecture to me.
I'm trying to find some hope in Christianity because that's what I was brought up in. I desperately want there to be something more, but I guess I haven't investigated other faiths. There's not the same conviction or promises, i guess, in say Buddhist or New Age religion. I have extreme anxiety disorder, feel suicidal, and probably need counselling. I'm truly afraid I might not even make the end of the year. I'm not saying to get attention, God is my wittness I am really desperate right now . I've got a raging headache as i type this, feel like throwing up, can't sleep...it's an awful feeling. It feels my world is caving in. I don't know who I can turn to...when i asked my mother about this she said a lot about not asking questions, trust God, she even said maybe I have to find truth elsewhere, as if she was 'giving up' on me.
I hate this life and wish I'd never been born. Sorry this devolved into a rant. If Jesus' second coming was all false I feel so betrayed. I hope no one's faith is weakened by this post. I don't want to die. I wish so much that there's not a wrathful God up there, but I hope there's more. I hope I can get some rest or peace or else I think I'll go crazy with anxiety.
Can anyone at least put this doubt to rest for now, regarding what Paul is saying?
It's not just this, but I'm desperately trying to reconcile the Bible with logic and the world I see around me.
Hi Trimac20. I can set your mind at ease regarding what Paul said, if you will listen to me. I will ask you to hear me out. The first thing you absolutely must understand is that the Second Advent of Christ, at which time He will set up His Millennial kingdom, is a different event than His return for the Church, which was what Paul was referring to in 1 Thess. 4:15-17.
Regarding His return to establish His Kingdom, Jesus had specifically said that it would not be during that generation. Look at the following verses.
Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.
Matthew 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38] "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!39] "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"
When the apostles asked Jesus if it was at that time that He was going to restore the kingdom to Israel, Jesus told them that it was not for them to know the times and epochs, which implied that potentially a very long period of time could elapse before He returned to establish His kingdom. Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7] He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
Jesus had prophesied the destruction of the temple (Matthew 24:2), as had Daniel (Dan. 9:26). That happened in 70 A.D. Far from saying that He was going to return in that generation to establish His kingdom, He had said that the nation Israel was going to be temporarily set aside.
From those verses, it is clear that Jesus never said that He was going to return to establish His kingdom during that generation. Jesus had said that the kingdom was to be taken from Israel, that their house would be left desolate, that they would not see Him again until they recognized that He was the Messiah (the judgments of the Tribulation are designed to open the eyes of the Jews), and that it was not for them to know the times and epochs concerning the establishment of the kingdom, and therefore, the Second Advent of Christ.
Before Jesus can return to establish His kingdom, there are certain prophecies which must be fulfilled. Namely, the seven year Triblational period must take place before Christ returns to set up His kingdom.
However, the rapture of the Church, of which Paul spoke in 1 Thess. 4:15-17, is imminent, which means that there are no prophecies which must first take place before it occurs. Paul and the 1st century Church did think that the rapture of the Church would take place in their time. In fact, because of some false messages which the Thessalonians had received which were supposedly from Paul, but which were not, they were afraid that they had missed the rapture and that the day of the Lord was upon them. That is why Paul reassured them in 2 Thess. 2:1-8 that the day of the Lord, which begins with the Tribulation, and the man of lawlessness could not come until the restrainer - the Holy Spirit was taken out of the way. Not that the Holy Spirit Himself would be removed, but His restraining ministry would be lifted when the Church is raptured.
Since the expectation of the rapture of the Church is intended to provide comfort for believers (see 1 Thess. 4:18; Titus 2:13), as well as to encourage believers to live with the expectation that He could return at any time, the time of its occurance has not been revealed.
Since all the prophecies concerning His First Advent were fulfilled, you can have confidence that the prophecies concerning His Second Advent will also be fulfilled.
As for reconciling the Bible with the world around you; the Bible teaches that man is born with a sinful nature, and Jesus said that there would be wars and rumors of wars until He returned (Matthew 24:6-7). The things going on in the world therefore, do not conflict with what the Bible says about man.
How did the Church continue when Jesus did not return for the Church in the first century? For one thing, John, the last of the apostles, wrote the book of Revelation in 95 A.D., and died some time after that. Jesus Christ revealed to John (Revelation 1:1-2) the future events which were to take place. And some of the other witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus Christ were undoubtedly still alive toward the end of the century and would have reminded others of the fact of the resurrection. Some of the early Church fathers in the early 2nd century had known and learned from the apostles. So the fact that the rapture of the Church did not happen in the 1st century was no reason to doubt Christianity.
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^ Thanks Mike and others. Maybe it's more complicated than that, still the 'those who are standing here' verse gets to me.
Do you believe Paul believed Jesus would return in his lifetime or within the lifetime of his contempories, Mike? Paul seems so SURE when he speaks of the Lord's return in Thessalonians. If he was inspired through the Holy Spirit how could you get it so wrong?
I'm read about Preteism, but I'm wondering how it can really fit into the whole picture. I guess the fact I simply can't, even if I wanted to, believe in a world wide flood doesn't help things. I'll have to accept for now it was a localized flood, based on a combination of myth and history...is it better to 'half believe' than not believe at all?
The "parousia" referred to is the fact that the Living Word of God now abides with us as His Holy Spirit within our consciousness to guide us to what God has "written in our hearts." Christ is among us ALL NOW and has been since His crucifixion and rebirth as Spirit.
You do know the Spirit was a seal until the the church was redeemed right?
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
How long where first century Christians sealed with the Holy Spirit? That's right, unto the day of redemption.
Since the day of redemption is passed, we know people are no longer sealed with the Holy Spirit. We also know that the Spirit was given by the laying on of hands by apostles, whom you have never met.
Now this is like the 20th time or so that I have answered you or others on this but for some reason the mods always delete my posts on this topic (I guess it's a forbidden topic?). Which only shows to me they do not have the Spirit either.
I am redeemed now! I guess you are waiting to be redeemed later on at some point from your own words (But I'm willing to bet the Lord has redeemed you to even if you understand this or not).
At any rate, our consciousness does not tell us what is or what is not truth. The little "voice" inside you can lead you astray as it does to many.
^ Thanks Mike and others. Maybe it's more complicated than that, still the 'those who are standing here' verse gets to me.
Do you believe Paul believed Jesus would return in his lifetime or within the lifetime of his contempories, Mike? Paul seems so SURE when he speaks of the Lord's return in Thessalonians. If he was inspired through the Holy Spirit how could you get it so wrong?
I'm read about Preteism, but I'm wondering how it can really fit into the whole picture. I guess the fact I simply can't, even if I wanted to, believe in a world wide flood doesn't help things. I'll have to accept for now it was a localized flood, based on a combination of myth and history...is it better to 'half believe' than not believe at all?
Hey I meant to share something else with you that I think clears that "some of you standing here" thing. That passage say's that some of those who were standing there would not taste death until they saw Jesus coming in his glory. Let me point out that Jesus does not say they will seem Him coming back to Earth to reign or establish His Kingdom. Only they would see Him coming in His Kingdom. Also I would point out that Peter, James and John were standing there.
Later Jesus takes Peter, James and John up on a high mountain and was "transfigured" before them. A lot more happens there but I believe what they saw was Jesus coming in His Glory and Kingdom. It was a preview of what was coming but there it was before them. So some of those who had been standing there when Jesus said what He did ended up seeing Him in his Glory or Kingdom later on.
11-04-2012, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20
In all sincerity, I want to say this is something very confronting to me at the moment. It may not affect you, but it questions the very validity of what Jesus said in the gospels. So if you prefer not to examine, do not read on. It is extremely confronting to my faith at the moment, and i can honestly say I'm not sure if I believe anymore at all. I might not even believe, but a part of me is refusing to let go. i admit a part of it is the fear that has been drilled into me all these years, it makes me curse my birth and my upbringing at times. Also, I desperately want something more than this life. I find this life full of pain and misery, with nothing to look forward to, and I'd find the atheist scenario of nothing after this life equally nightmarish. It's no use to say 'enjoy this life' when I find the world an ugly, cold place. I don't want to admit this to my parents or anyone else, for fear they will be concerned for my soul that I might burn in hell for all eternity. Oh the joys of being raised in orthodox/fundamentalist Christianity...
I'm sure anyone familiar with the NT are familiar with all Jesus' 'second coming' prediction texts in all the gospels. I won't specify them all. It does indeed appear that Jesus predicted his soon return, unless you interpret it another way or interpret the 'coming' as another something different to the universal 'end of the age.' I've also heard the various explanations (you'd have to go into each verse). E.g. that it refers to the glorification of Jesus (I know there's a specific term but it escapes me), that generation is not a literal generation.etc. Doesn't the fact asked those he was speaking to AT THE TIME to watch out for the Lord's coming for the day and hour is unknown and it will come as a thief in the night.
Now up to this point, all I could do was go by the above explanations. The alternative, of course, was to admit that Jesus was simply wrong. C.S. Lewis was one who felt forced to accept this conclusion, but I never really felt comfortable with it. While the disciplines and early followers might have expected his soon return, I always thought perhaps they misinterpreted Jesus' words. This, I can only imagine, is the only other alternative. Now, however, it seems we have to put Paul in that category. Paul was supposedly inspired by God, so if he was mistaken, can we trust him?
Here's the verse in question:
4 Thessalonions 4:15-17
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of the God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together in them in the in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
How do you argue away this passage? In the expositions about Jesus' apparent failed/unfulfilled prophecies about his second coming, I seldom see it raised. Does it not show that Paul believed in a liberal, physical return of Christ, and a physical resurrection in the lifetime of those he wrote to, the Church at Thessalonica? If so, Paul himself believed this, and there's no way to argue that generation doesn't mean 40 years, or that those standing here would not taste death before seeing the second coming.
The huge BUT, however is...if this was bleedingly obvious, how did Christianity continue after this? If Jesus' second coming was plainly unfulfilled, how did Christianity grow and thrive? Were the gospels freely available to all say after 150 AD? I know little about early Church history so it's all conjecture to me.
I'm trying to find some hope in Christianity because that's what I was brought up in. I desperately want there to be something more, but I guess I haven't investigated other faiths. There's not the same conviction or promises, i guess, in say Buddhist or New Age religion. I have extreme anxiety disorder, feel suicidal, and probably need counselling. I'm truly afraid I might not even make the end of the year. I'm not saying to get attention, God is my wittness I am really desperate right now . I've got a raging headache as i type this, feel like throwing up, can't sleep...it's an awful feeling. It feels my world is caving in. I don't know who I can turn to...when i asked my mother about this she said a lot about not asking questions, trust God, she even said maybe I have to find truth elsewhere, as if she was 'giving up' on me.
I hate this life and wish I'd never been born. Sorry this devolved into a rant. If Jesus' second coming was all false I feel so betrayed. I hope no one's faith is weakened by this post. I don't want to die. I wish so much that there's not a wrathful God up there, but I hope there's more. I hope I can get some rest or peace or else I think I'll go crazy with anxiety.
Can anyone at least put this doubt to rest for now, regarding what Paul is saying?
It's not just this, but I'm desperately trying to reconcile the Bible with logic and the world I see around me.
Trimac20
You should never fear the truth. The fact that you have noticed these things which are clearly taught in the Bible is causing severe cognitive dissonance Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia with what you where brought-up believing.
Yes the Bible clearly teaches that the return of the Lord was to be within a generation, a short time, within the life expectancy of the disciples. In fact this is why some of the exhortations were to not marry if unmarried and to go out into the world and gather people from everywhere starting in Jerusalem, etc., etc.
The reason believers have struggled with this (eschatology in genral and the return of the Lord specifically) is because they without question believe Christ must be true and the Bible must be inspired. Therefore, they operate under a false dichotomy - either some form of futurism or some form of preterism always going around in a circle not quite figuring out how all the pieces fit - never considering the thrid option - it is wrong and the expectation of his return within that generation has not come to pass. But if that is the case then you can see the cognitive pain associtaed with rejecting this worldview.
You wanted to know how, if this was so clear, that Christianity could continue. Others have given some points, particualrly historical aspects, but I want to stick with three or four that are pertinent to you and humanity in general - Cognitive Bias, Cognitive Dissonance, and the ambiguity of language and the abiltiy of people to formulate concepts and ideas (particualrly metaphysical and theological) from a-priori starting points along with that ambiguity that language affords people to justify and protect their most cherished beliefs.
You should not be fearful of seeing clearly regarding these facts of Scripture. We must face life in all of its frailty and dissatisfaction with courage and a sense of awe that we have but this life and that life does not come with a pre-dertermined set of answers - they are often attained through much pain and struggle.
In regard to how you want to reconcile the Bible and this world's seeming contradictions with it's theology is another insight that must be embraced. This is exactly why the Bible has concepts like Paradise and Paradise Lost - the Fall - and of course Paradise Restored the New Heavens and the New Earth. Because reality is at odds with these theological concepts and in order to save them these doctrine must be invoked otherwise reality smacks the face of these theological concepts and would drive any sane person away from embracing them. Don't you find it odd that the real world that we have access to is completely at odds with this God and the Bible. And yet the things that make it somewhat coherent are the worlds that we have no access to - none what so ever - paradise, the fall, and paradise restored.
Since you seem troubled by this I would, as others have suggested, seek help and discuss these things with a professional. I hope you stay strong in your journey to understand our place in this life and what it all means - as if that were 100% possible. Relax! the truth is unfolding before you - take it slow and embrace reality. You must have enough mental strength and tools to live according to your conscience - if your conscience cannot live with the reality of the Bible being wrong then you are better off seeking people to tell you what you want to hear in order to avoid the rocky path reason has set you on.
^ Thanks Mike and others. Maybe it's more complicated than that, still the 'those who are standing here' verse gets to me.
Do you believe Paul believed Jesus would return in his lifetime or within the lifetime of his contempories, Mike? Paul seems so SURE when he speaks of the Lord's return in Thessalonians. If he was inspired through the Holy Spirit how could you get it so wrong?
I'm read about Preteism, but I'm wondering how it can really fit into the whole picture. I guess the fact I simply can't, even if I wanted to, believe in a world wide flood doesn't help things. I'll have to accept for now it was a localized flood, based on a combination of myth and history...is it better to 'half believe' than not believe at all?
Yes. As I said, Paul and the 1st century Church did think that the rapture of the Church, in which Christ returns to the clouds, (He does not actually set foot on the earth at the rapture) would occur during their time. But what you need to realize is that God intended for every generation of the Church to wait for the blessed hope (Titus 2:13), that is, the rapture. Since there is no prophecy which needs to be fulfilled before the rapture can occur, the first century Church had every reason to think that it might, or would occur during their time. They had no idea that God intended the dispensation of the Church to run for what has been some two thousand years. Paul was not given any special insight concerning the timing of the rapture and the length of the Church Age. He simply hoped and expected the rapture's occurrence just as everyone else did.
With regard to the verse about 'those standing here', (Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1; Luke 9:27), that was simply a reference to the transfiguration event which took place six days later and is recorded in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The mention of the transfiguration of Jesus Christ is recorded in all three of those gospel accounts immediately following His announcment that some who were standing there would not die until they saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. During Jesus' transfiguration, both Moses and Elijah appeared with Him, and this was a preview look at the kingdom.
Preterism has no validity to it. According to Preterism, or at least, according to Full Preterism, all prophecy was fulfulled by 70 A.D. However, Jesus gave John revelation of future events in 95 A.D., which puts the lie to that belief system.
Regarding the issue of your being unable to believe in a global flood, you are going to have to ask yourself if God, who is omnipotent, was able to bring about the flood just as described in the Bible. I can't help you with your belief except to say that with God, all things are possible. And I will say that I have no trouble at all believing that it all took place exactly as described.
The flood was global. A local flood could not have risen higher than the mountains, and there would have been no need for God to have brought the animals to the Ark, since in a local flood they would have survived elsewhere. And it was not a myth. The Bible is not about myths. Satan had tried to head off the possibility of Jesus coming into the world as a member of true humanity by having a group of his fallen angels breed with human women, thus turning the human race into a hydrid race. Since Adam had been true humanity, and it was his sin that caused the spiritual death of all true humanity which was to follow him, Jesus had to become true humanity to pay for the sins of true humanity. God chose to eliminate the Nephilim by means of a global flood.
God, who created all that has been created, was certainly able to cause a global flood as described in Genesis. And the flood was a supernatural event, as was the reshaping and resculpting of the earth's topography afterwards. The present day oceans contain the very flood waters which had covered the earth.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-04-2012 at 01:30 AM..
Someone has probably answered this already, but I'll speak on it again. The answer is, Paul was ready for Christ's coming in his day. Every Christian should be ready and expect Him to come. Yet as to what Jesus said, He said the generation that would see all the things He spoke of concerning the end times, that generation would not pass away until everything was fulfilled. It's only in today's generation, where we are seeing all of these things happening at one time. (Due to the media) Jesus also said that the Gospel would be preached to the whole world, and then the end would come. Was the Gospel preached to the whole world in Paul's day? People didn't even know North America and South America existed until the 1400s. Even then, the true message of the Gospel was compromised in the Dark Ages. (It started with Constatine) Only in today's age, is the true message of the Gospel is being preached throughout the whole world. (By that I mean salvation is based on what Jesus has done, not on what we can do for God. We just have to received it, and rest in it. That's all. This truth has been compromised for over a thousand years)
Basically, it's this generation, that all these things are happening. It's this generation where Jesus said if He doesn't come when He does, we would destroy ourselves. (Nuclear bombs, chemical warfare, etc.) Daniel said that people would travel to and fro about the earth, before the end would come. (Daniel 12: 4)
To sum up, yes Paul believed Jesus could come in his time, but that is the attitude of every Christian. That is a healthy expectation. Yet when we read Jesus words, it's only in this generation where everything is happening just like He said would be happening, just before He returned. Don't lose your hope.
Matthew 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
The "parousia" referred to is the fact that the Living Word of God now abides with us as His Holy Spirit within our consciousness to guide us to what God has "written in our hearts." Christ is among us ALL NOW and has been since His crucifixion and rebirth as Spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowdog
You do know the Spirit was a seal until the the church was redeemed right?
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
How long where first century Christians sealed with the Holy Spirit? That's right, unto the day of redemption.
The church was never redeemed . . . WE were.
Quote:
Since the day of redemption is passed, we know people are no longer sealed with the Holy Spirit. We also know that the Spirit was given by the laying on of hands by apostles, whom you have never met.
Nonsense. Once Christ died and was reborn as Spirit His Holy Spirit became available to us ALL within our consciousness (Spirit). We listen to or ignore it using our own free will and human desires. But God has the truth "written in our hearts" and we can learn it without need for any men to teach us (or lay on hands . . . or any other ritual). We need only sincerely listen to the Holy Spirit's guidance. Any errors are entirely of our making based on our weaknesses and human desires.
Quote:
I am redeemed now! I guess you are waiting to be redeemed later on at some point from your own words (But I'm willing to bet the Lord has redeemed you to even if you understand this or not).
We ALL are redeemed now . . . but we need to be sanctified and justified under Christ's grace and love for us all by following His commands to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't.
Quote:
At any rate, our consciousness does not tell us what is or what is not truth. The little "voice" inside you can lead you astray as it does to many.
Only the insincere and those whose human needs are so frustrated or distorted that they mask what is in our hearts. Be silent and know God to remove those distortions and the Holy Spirit will not lead you astray. Ask "What Would Jesus Think" (WWJT). Forget all the ignorant, superstitious, savage and barbaric notions about God in the OT. Christ is the exemplar . . . NOT the ignorant ancient descriptions of Jehovah or Yahweh.
In all sincerity, I want to say this is something very confronting to me at the moment. It may not affect you, but it questions the very validity of what Jesus said in the gospels. So if you prefer not to examine, do not read on. It is extremely confronting to my faith at the moment, and i can honestly say I'm not sure if I believe anymore at all. I might not even believe, but a part of me is refusing to let go. i admit a part of it is the fear that has been drilled into me all these years, it makes me curse my birth and my upbringing at times. Also, I desperately want something more than this life. I find this life full of pain and misery, with nothing to look forward to, and I'd find the atheist scenario of nothing after this life equally nightmarish. It's no use to say 'enjoy this life' when I find the world an ugly, cold place. I don't want to admit this to my parents or anyone else, for fear they will be concerned for my soul that I might burn in hell for all eternity. Oh the joys of being raised in orthodox/fundamentalist Christianity...
I'm sure anyone familiar with the NT are familiar with all Jesus' 'second coming' prediction texts in all the gospels. I won't specify them all. It does indeed appear that Jesus predicted his soon return, unless you interpret it another way or interpret the 'coming' as another something different to the universal 'end of the age.' I've also heard the various explanations (you'd have to go into each verse). E.g. that it refers to the glorification of Jesus (I know there's a specific term but it escapes me), that generation is not a literal generation.etc. Doesn't the fact asked those he was speaking to AT THE TIME to watch out for the Lord's coming for the day and hour is unknown and it will come as a thief in the night.
Now up to this point, all I could do was go by the above explanations. The alternative, of course, was to admit that Jesus was simply wrong. C.S. Lewis was one who felt forced to accept this conclusion, but I never really felt comfortable with it. While the disciplines and early followers might have expected his soon return, I always thought perhaps they misinterpreted Jesus' words. This, I can only imagine, is the only other alternative. Now, however, it seems we have to put Paul in that category. Paul was supposedly inspired by God, so if he was mistaken, can we trust him?
Here's the verse in question:
4 Thessalonions 4:15-17
According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of the God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together in them in the in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
How do you argue away this passage? In the expositions about Jesus' apparent failed/unfulfilled prophecies about his second coming, I seldom see it raised. Does it not show that Paul believed in a liberal, physical return of Christ, and a physical resurrection in the lifetime of those he wrote to, the Church at Thessalonica? If so, Paul himself believed this, and there's no way to argue that generation doesn't mean 40 years, or that those standing here would not taste death before seeing the second coming.
The huge BUT, however is...if this was bleedingly obvious, how did Christianity continue after this? If Jesus' second coming was plainly unfulfilled, how did Christianity grow and thrive? Were the gospels freely available to all say after 150 AD? I know little about early Church history so it's all conjecture to me.
I'm trying to find some hope in Christianity because that's what I was brought up in. I desperately want there to be something more, but I guess I haven't investigated other faiths. There's not the same conviction or promises, i guess, in say Buddhist or New Age religion. I have extreme anxiety disorder, feel suicidal, and probably need counselling. I'm truly afraid I might not even make the end of the year. I'm not saying to get attention, God is my wittness I am really desperate right now . I've got a raging headache as i type this, feel like throwing up, can't sleep...it's an awful feeling. It feels my world is caving in. I don't know who I can turn to...when i asked my mother about this she said a lot about not asking questions, trust God, she even said maybe I have to find truth elsewhere, as if she was 'giving up' on me.
I hate this life and wish I'd never been born. Sorry this devolved into a rant. If Jesus' second coming was all false I feel so betrayed. I hope no one's faith is weakened by this post. I don't want to die. I wish so much that there's not a wrathful God up there, but I hope there's more. I hope I can get some rest or peace or else I think I'll go crazy with anxiety.
Can anyone at least put this doubt to rest for now, regarding what Paul is saying?
It's not just this, but I'm desperately trying to reconcile the Bible with logic and the world I see around me.
You are correct in your thinking.....
Matt 10:23: [Jesus said to his disciples] 'When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes'.
Mark 13:30: [After detailing events up to the end of the world, Jesus says] 'Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place'.
1 Thess 4:15: We who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord [“ are left” for 2,000 years?].
: The appointed time has grown very short; from now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none [he certainly didn’t mean live that way for 2,000 years].
Hebrews 1:2: In these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.
1 Peter 1:20: He [Christ] was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times.
Rev 22:20: [Jesus said] 'Surely I am coming soon'.
1 Cor 7:26-31 Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for a man to remain as he is. 27 Are you pledged to a woman? Do not seek to be released. Are you free from such a commitment? Do not look for a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.
29 What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; 30 those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31 those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
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. I've got a raging headache as i type this, feel like throwing up, can't sleep...it's an awful feeling. It feels my world is caving in. I don't know who I can turn to...when i asked my mother about this she said a lot about not asking questions, trust God, she even said maybe I have to find truth elsewhere, as if she was 'giving up' on me.
