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Oh, you know it couldn't be that simple ... it takes more doctrines than that to make one a Lutheran. Infant baptism and consubstantiation, to name a couple biggies.
And the truth comes out ..... don't blame me for rejecting the truth.
You know why God does keep the wicked stubborn \ blind and kepts them delusional?
A: As a judgement against them for justifying to themselves whose responsible for their wickedness and wanton refusal to listen to the truth.
Exactly that. UR has no theology standards when certain "all" verses must be understood "all inclusive".
One of these three is a fool fool's theology:
Atheist: "there is no God" God: "a fool says there is no God" UR: "every knee will bow in belief"
Everybody else: (name any other religion other than one that believes Jesus is the only true "God") God: "only the name of Jesus where one must be saved", for "I alone save" (NT ref to OT ref) UR: repeat after me: "all" means "all inclusive"
Unbeliever: "who needs faith, my morals are good enough to get me through" God: "without faith it is impossible to please" UR: ah... but "with God all things are possible"
And the table is now set for the non standards theology of Universalism
Twin this is ridiculous. You act as if an eternal hell is the only way to get non-believers to convert and follow Christ! If you have any experience whatsoever in real evangelism, you know that this idea is not true...unless you were one of those street corner bullhorn people I suppose, but I assume nothing. How about trusting God work on peoples hearts through Love shown by Christians and even URs and give this fear based evangelism necessity idea a rest?
Oh, but now you become a leterialist when it suits you.
Paul is speaking to the saved. You know, those who have trusted in Christ before they die?
Note, previous to v. 32 Paul writes: Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Yet another wasted post to those who can't see past their hoped for theology. Sorry, but context matters. I am done.
Hey everyone, according to Mr5150 Revelation was written to the saved. So only those in the lake of fire are the saved. LOL.
Mr5150, why were they proken off? Answer: for their unbelief.
Why did they not believe? Answer: They were locked up by God in stubbornness.
God blinded them according to Isaiah so that hearing they would not hear and seeing they would not see till this very day. What is the end result of their being locked up in stubbornness? Answer: God will be merciful to them. By "merciful" God means He will save them at a later date.
Do you believe your own learning? your own pastor? rather than God?
And the truth comes out ..... don't blame me for rejecting the truth.
I praise God for freeing me from those things that were not truth, Twin.
Quote:
You know why God does keep the wicked stubborn \ blind and kepts them delusional?
A: As a judgement against them for justifying to themselves whose responsible for their wickedness and wanton refusal to listen to the truth.
The UR points the finger at God
This accusation always astounds me. I have no "wicked life-style" that I'm trying to justify. The sins I struggled with as an ET Christian I was striving to overcome, and never blamed God for those things. I thought of myself as a worm, a filthy, awful sinner who deserved nothing but eternal torment. The thought never entered my mind to blame God for that. I never pointed the finger at God, and I still don't. The only difference between being a ETer and URer, for me, was having the knowledge of God's love expanded and beginning to heal some very deep wounds in my heart. And the difference between being a Christian URist and what I am now is simply trusting even more in the expansiveness and power of God's love. I would say it has also expanded my own sense of responsibility for myself, but in a healthy way, not a condemning way.
Twin this is ridiculous. You act as if an eternal hell is the only way to get non-believers to convert and follow Christ! If you have any experience whatsoever in real evangelism, you know that this idea is not true...unless you were one of those street corner bullhorn people I suppose, but I assume nothing. How about trusting God work on peoples hearts through Love shown by Christians and even URs and give this fear based evangelism necessity idea a rest?
I not here to evangelize to the adamnt UR. Noah was being righteous by condemning the world who reject the truth.
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
John 3:16, 36; Matthew 25 "thus says the Lord"
"Without faith it is impossible to please God"
The message of UR is vomit and God calls it "the folly of fools" or as the OP stated "God was joking and didn't really mean it".
Twin, I would still appreciate an answer to the questions I've asked you in this post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Ah. Well, I'm not ignorant of the teachings and doctrines of men. I believed pretty much the exact same ones Twin did. And even at that time, I believed in UR, too.
I held to every single doctrine of Lutheranism, except the doctrine of eternal torment. I believed in an inerrant, infallible Bible and came to see, in that Bible, a God of grace, mercy and love whose desire was for all to be saved and who would achieve his desire.
I believed in the Trinity; I believed in the penal substitution theory of atonement and that that sacrifice was made on behalf of the whole world; I believed that faith in that sacrifice was necessary for salvation, and that God alone could impart that faith. I believed everything you believe, Twin, EXCEPT for the doctrine of eternal hell. My belief in UR never threatened any of those other beliefs. Can you really tell me that at that point in time you would not have considered me to be a Christian believing in the same God you do? Would you have condemned me to hell with your words?
Is the idea that God will torment people for eternity so central to your belief system that you cannot see beyond it? Is it so important to you that it is worth it to you to denigrate the love of God for all people in order to speak condemnation?
You believe that God imparts faith, yes? That nothing in ourselves can bring us to saving faith, but only the goodness and mercy of God? Then why not speak loudly and joyfully of that goodness and mercy? According to what you believe, if God has chosen to give someone faith in that goodness and grace, then they will have faith, simply because of the kindness of God. No threats necessary.
I praise God for freeing me from those things that were not truth, Twin.
This accusation always astounds me. I have no "wicked life-style" that I'm trying to justify. The sins I struggled with as an ET Christian I was striving to overcome, and never blamed God for those things. I thought of myself as a worm, a filthy, awful sinner who deserved nothing but eternal torment. The thought never entered my mind to blame God for that. I never pointed the finger at God, and I still don't. The only difference between being a ETer and URer, for me, was having the knowledge of God's love expanded and beginning to heal some very deep wounds in my heart. And the difference between being a Christian URist and what I am now is simply trusting even more in the expansiveness and power of God's love. I would say it has also expanded my own sense of responsibility for myself, but in a healthy way, not a condemning way.
Pleroo,
John 3:36 is the truth. Convincing yourself otherwise is not "freedom"
Blaming it on "lutheranism" is a cop-out, for that's not who wrote the scriptures.
Blaming it on "those who wrote the scriptures" is a cop-out, for they were inspired by the H.S.
To embrace UR theology is to blame anybody up to and including God himself for your personal rejection of the truth.
And that's what it's simply all about.
To reject any of the truth by offering salvation to those whom God does not (as UR theology does) is damnable.
"without faith it is impossible to please God"
End of story......
didn't see the last reply while typing this one, so.....
Is the idea that God will torment people for eternity so central to your belief system that you cannot see beyond it?
Yes, because that was the purpose for why Jesus suffered on a cross.
Jesus suffered the eternal punishment of God's wrath over my personal sin.
Jesus suffered the wrath of God as the only subsitute acceptable for a reason.
As John the Baptist accused those who rejected the truth:
“You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?"
Last edited by twin.spin; 01-17-2013 at 12:58 PM..
Pleroo,
John 3:36 is the truth. Convincing yourself otherwise is not "freedom"
Blaming it on "lutheranism" is a cop-out, for that's not who wrote the scriptures.
Blaming it on "those who wrote the scriptures" is a cop-out, for they were inspired by the H.S.
To embrace UR theology is to blame anybody up to and including God himself for your personal rejection of the truth.
And that's what it's simply all about.
To reject any of the truth by offering salvation to those whom God does not (as UR theology does) is damnable.
"without faith it is impossible to please God"
End of story.
No, it may be the end of YOUR story at this point. But I do not accept your beliefs as truth, Twin. You see this, right? I'm not rejecting what I believe to be truth and what I believe to be the true meaning of the Scriptures you quote. If I were, that would be wanton wickedness. But I am embracing what I believe to be truth: God excludes no one and is not holding our sins against us. Not everyone is believing that, and whoever is not believing it is living under condemnation as long as they remain convinced that they are. But that doesn't change the reality of the situation.
I praise God for freeing me from those things that were not truth, Twin.
This accusation always astounds me. I have no "wicked life-style" that I'm trying to justify. The sins I struggled with as an ET Christian I was striving to overcome, and never blamed God for those things. I thought of myself as a worm, a filthy, awful sinner who deserved nothing but eternal torment. The thought never entered my mind to blame God for that. I never pointed the finger at God, and I still don't. The only difference between being a ETer and URer, for me, was having the knowledge of God's love expanded and beginning to heal some very deep wounds in my heart. And the difference between being a Christian URist and what I am now is simply trusting even more in the expansiveness and power of God's love. I would say it has also expanded my own sense of responsibility for myself, but in a healthy way, not a condemning way.
Absolutely. Same for me. I was actually much more sin-prone as an ET believer because ET believers cannot grow up in Christ and continue further into the journey of the knowledge of the truth. They are growth stunted. That is why the Baptist and other similar congregations have the same message every Sunday for decades - because they can never, as a group get into the meat of the Word.
Absolutely. Same for me. I was actually much more sin-prone as an ET believer because ET believers cannot grow up in Christ and continue further into the journey of the knowledge of the truth. They are growth stunted. That is why the Baptist and other similar congregations have the same message every Sunday for decades - because they can never, as a group get into the meat of the Word.
That was my experience. But I'm not sure it was ET, only, that was the problem. And I think it's possible that, because we're all different, others may not have their growth stunted in the same way and to the same extent that I did by the same things, kwim? I really don't know.
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