Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
To answer the OP's question. Yes, the God of the Old Testament is that same as the God of the New Testament. In fact, the theophanies,(appearances of God) in the Old Testament are the Son of God. I'll post a few verses that show that the "Angel of the Lord" is in fact God himself.
Ge 22:11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
Ge 22:17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies,
Clearly this event is an encounter with God, who is referred to as the Angel of the Lord.
Ex 3:2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
Ex 3:4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”
So we can see that in both cases, the "Angel of the Lord" is also referred to as God, and there are many other references like this. This makes sense that this Angel of the Lord is the Son of God. Jesus says that no one has ever seen the father, yet quite a few people in the OT met and talked with God, so we can assume, that it is the Son they spoke with. Remember also that the word "Angel" can also be translated "messenger" Remember that Jesus in John's Gospel is the word made flesh. Words=Messenges from the messenger. Jesus also says that the words he speaks come from the Father alone. A messanger. So yes, the OT Angel of the Lord is the Son of God.
There is lots more, but I wanted to keep this brief. Do a word search on the "Angel of the Lord" in the OT and you will find many other appearances.
No, Jesus did not try to tell those who believed the OT 100% that the God they believed in was NOT His Father.
On the contrary, Jesus told His opponents that if they had believed Moses, which was a reference to the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament, that they would have believed Him.
.
Seems to be the case. If one reads the NT and says OK, must be so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisWayne
OK, I get that you believe we only have one God but the writers of the bible did not understand Him correctly as you do. You claim the bible is inspired but not correct when the "chirst in you" makes you feel it is wrong or does not line up with what you are convinced is the way God has to be as you understand Jesus revealed it. Also since you acknowledge the Israelites had a God named Jehovah and you reject Him as God, and based on the claim you continue to make that there is only one God are you saying you reject God altogether?
The thread I see here is the bible is often wrong and what you feel over-rides anything you don't believe in the bible. I know you don't want it worded that way but that is what your saying over and over.
The point is you do not take what I would call a normal, traditional view of belief in scripture. Most believe it is all correct and we must conform our faith to what it teaches since it is God's word. You seem to believe the bible must mean what you feel from what you call "christ in you" because you understand God better than the people who wrote the bible and must correct their misunderstanding.
Pretty much the case and anyone who is not a Universalist can see this as plain as day.
The OT, written by inspired folk and Historians and Vetted by Jesus is not to be trusted-so says Mystic. Confusing? Not at all. I've learned a thing or two about crack-pot theology over the last seven years on the internet. When one's theology isn't supported by scripture some just dismiss scripture as Wrong and go with their feelings-I see this all the time here and other places.
Some will choose the former.
Some will choose the latter.
But eventually, all will discard the former, and embrace the latter.
There is nothing new under the sun.
This struggle within has been unfolding for thousands of years.
When you look into the eyes of your neighbor, who will you see... an enemy? or a friend?
Again...
the former will be discarded and the latter will be embraced.
You too will bow your knee when coming face to face with the God of LOVE. As ALL will.
And your heart will rejoice, as your former notions of a vengeful, wrathful, petty God flutter to the floor and your understanding of the POWER of Love (God) starts to settle in.
The great understanding of GOD came about through Christ. Prior to that God was a distant thing who's nature was a speculation bordering on myth. Christ was like a math professor who actually explained the equation. I really don't know why Christians involve themselves in the Old Testament. It just does not seem useful. For the most part I found that there was a lot of bad behavior that was glorified in the OT.
The great understanding of GOD came about through Christ. Prior to that God was a distant thing who's nature was a speculation bordering on myth. Christ was like a math professor who actually explained the equation. I really don't know why Christians involve themselves in the Old Testament. It just does not seem useful. For the most part I found that there was a lot of bad behavior that was glorified in the OT.
I like your ^ above ^ mentioning of likening Jesus to a math professor explaining God to us.
Why did Jesus involve himself in the Hebrew OT Scriptures ?
Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, "It is written....". Where was in written but in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus even used those verses to refute Satan, and as the final authority on matters.
Was the bad behavior of the pre-flood people glorified, or the bad behavior glorified at Sodom and Gomorrah ?
Was it bad behavior on the part of the Canaanite Rahab to hide the Hebrew spies ?
Wasn't Rahab and her family spared being destroyed with those wicked Canaanites ?
Seems to be the case. If one reads the NT and says OK, must be so.
Pretty much the case and anyone who is not a Universalist can see this as plain as day.
The OT, written by inspired folk and Historians and Vetted by Jesus is not to be trusted-so says Mystic. Confusing? Not at all. I've learned a thing or two about crack-pot theology over the last seven years on the internet. When one's theology isn't supported by scripture some just dismiss scripture as Wrong and go with their feelings-I see this all the time here and other places.
God says, I hardened Pharaoh heart.
God says, Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
God says, I murdered Saul.
God says, Saul killed himself.
Romans 1:28
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God (the true and living Spirit) any longer.
God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, ...
The great understanding of GOD came about through Christ. Prior to that God was a distant thing who's nature was a speculation bordering on myth. Christ was like a math professor who actually explained the equation. I really don't know why Christians involve themselves in the Old Testament. It just does not seem useful. For the most part I found that there was a lot of bad behavior that was glorified in the OT.
I like your post Oleg,but would have to say that the things concerning Christ can be found in the Old Testament scriptures, and that we should involve ourselves with them,relying on the mind of Christ we possess to understand them. Yet in saying that, a greater one than all the OT writers is here.who knew and understood the living God fully and in a way all before him who had a veiled view and understanding of God could have never have known(even John the Baptist).
Some will choose the former.
Some will choose the latter.
But eventually, all will discard the former, and embrace the latter.
There is nothing new under the sun.
This struggle within has been unfolding for thousands of years.
When you look into the eyes of your neighbor, who will you see... an enemy? or a friend?
Again...
the former will be discarded and the latter will be embraced.
You too will bow your knee when coming face to face with the God of LOVE. As ALL will.
And your heart will rejoice, as your former notions of a vengeful, wrathful, petty God flutter to the floor and your understanding of the POWER of Love (God) starts to settle in.
When we live in harmony with the spiritual laws of love which govern our existence, we experience abundant life. When we act out of harmony with those laws, God can appear to be full of wrath and vengeful because the consequences we've brought upon ourselves can be sometimes very harsh.
But these consequences bring our attention to the fact that we ARE out of harmony with love and, like a shepherd, they guide us back onto the narrow way of Love. We may resist being shepherded for a long time, but the consequences will continue to bear upon us as long as is necessary, because love never fails.
When we recognize that everything we experience is simply God's perfect and love-based spiritual laws in action, we no longer view God as a monster to fear, but rather as our Parent who desires the best for us, and whose spiritual laws ensure that the best will be achieved.
I am explaining what I believe. Did you even read my post? If you want to withdraw because my views make you uncomfortable or challenge your preferred understanding . . . I can understand that. But don't pretend that I am not complying with your request to explain my views. I am doing just that. You seem not to want to accept that the STANDARD for evaluating what is written is Christ . . . NOT ME and definitely not what our ignorant ancestors believed about Jehovah. Jesus tried to tell those who believed the OT 100% that the God they believed in was NOT His Father . . . but the devil. They just tried to kill Him for it.
John 8:40-47 King James Version (KJV)
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
No, Jesus did not try to tell those who believed the OT 100% that the God they believed in was NOT His Father.
On the contrary, Jesus told His opponents that if they had believed Moses, which was a reference to the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament, that they would have believed Him.
John 5:46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
If those who opposed Jesus had believed the writings of Moses then they would have recognized Him as the Messiah.
John 8:40-47 has nothing whatsoever to do with what you are claiming.
Mike, Mike . . . You know (or your mentors should know) that John 5:46 only refers to a specific aspect of the OT that I frequently have pointed out is critical to understanding Christ . . . because it teaches about Him, how to identify Him, what His status is, how to validate Him in prophesy, etc. Jesus was NOT crediting everything in the OT that Moses wrote. The phrase translated as "believe me" pisteuō an emoi has the article an that has no exact English equivalent but it indicates that something can or could occur on certain conditions. It is a very specific form of the phrase believe . . . as is pisteuō eis as I have referenced elsewhere many times.
John 8:40-47 DOES have everything to do with what I am claiming because Jesus SPECIFICALLY refers to the God they believe is their Father . . . as the devil. You know (or should) that I have never criticized everything in the OT . . . just those things that are the result of the ignorant, savage beliefs ABOUT the motives, deeds, and true nature of God that contradict what Jesus revealed about God That is the veil of ignorance that Christ came to lift and which must be lifted by WWJT every time the OT is read.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
