Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I understand you want to make this a punishment issue and make people who believe contrary to you make God an evil monster - because it contrasts the "God" you have made for yourself.
I have never stated God saves people from hell. I have quoted Romans 5:9 where it says we are saved from His wrath. I have quoted 2 Thessalonians 1:9 where it says God will send some to eternal destruction away from God's glory. To me, it seems pretty clear.
But if I am wrong - no problem - I will worship Him regardless - let God be true and all men liars. That is not the case for you. Your love for God is conditional, based on your preferences - and you seem OK with it.
So you do believe he saves from hell ?. Let the thoughts and ways of God be true and all our preconceived ideas seered into our being through the fear of death(eternal hell in the mind of the Fundamentalst), be exposed for what they are.
Your boast that you will worship him regardless is nothing more than bravado. If you came to your senses, you would not worship him regardless, no more than you would approve of what we have all just witnessed in Boston.
Your boast that you will worship him regardless is nothing more than bravado. If you came to your senses, you would not worship him regardless, no more than you would approve of what we have all just witnessed in Boston.
Would it not be funny if God does not turn out to fit your requirements and you then reject Him.
I don't think you are willing to submit to God, saying Your will be done O Lord. You only want a god that behaves on your terms. A man made god. On this point I can agree with the atheists and skeptics.
Would it not be funny if God does not turn out to fit your requirements and you then reject Him.
I don't think you are willing to submit to God, saying Your will be done O Lord. You only want a god that behaves on your terms. A man made god. On this point I can agree with the atheists and skeptics.
??? What has Boston got to do with anything?
Can you give me an answer?
Wouldn't it be funny if God did not turn out to be anything like your preconceived ideas of him born out of the fear of eternal hell.
And you seem OK with the fact that you would be willing to worship a god worse than the worst of mankind. More than okay with it, you take pride in it. You are proud that you would give blind allegiance to a being which is evil, simply because you believe that that evil being is the one in authority. You are unwilling to stand up for that which is good and right and somehow believe that makes you morally superior?
So you do believe he saves from hell ?. Let the thoughts and ways of God be true and all our preconceived ideas seered into our being through the fear of death(eternal hell in the mind of the Fundamentalst), be exposed for what they are.
Your boast that you will worship him regardless is nothing more than bravado. If you came to your senses, you would not worship him regardless, no more than you would approve of what we have all just witnessed in Boston.
OK - so not only must you control what God does, now you are telling me what I believe. You are the master of your theology.
You still ask about being saved from hell. I already have told you that specifically, it ain't there - either positively or negatively. I quoted to you what we are saved from - but you don't hear it.
Mike - A couple of people in this discussion have already admitted elsewhere that they would not worship a God who would punish people - so in their minds, they put their own restrictions upon God to act as they wish. As long as God is subject to their requirements, they can make Him into their desires - and these discussions will be fruitless.
But I also understand the desire to not let these heresies go unchallenged and take root within others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Wait. Are you talking about a god who would "punish" people as in them reaping what they sow, in order for them to LEARN. In order for them to understand the error of non-love.
They prefer to misrepresent our position and try to present it as extreme, sparrow. They want to marginalize it, undermine it and pretend it is heretical . . . when it is exactly what Christ taught and exemplified unambiguously. They have to justify retaining the ancient ignorance of our ancestors' beliefs about a jealous, vengeful, God and merging it with the God Jesus revealed.
Quote:
OR
are you talking about a God who would keep human beings alive in a neverending state of suffering and torment for things (during an average lifespan, say 8o years) that they may have done or may not have "believed" (or whatever is the criteria for a NEVERENDING state of suffering and torment)?
Some will bow down and worship God (who IS Love.)
Others will bow down and worship OUT OF FEAR, A god who would punish infinitely, MINDLESSLY for finite "crimes".
It is ridiculous that anyone would believe such horrendous Evil would be perpetrated by God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
Let me restate what the difference is - because it is NOT a matter of eternal punishment.
The issue is the fact that you (and the others) do not trust God if He acts outside of your parameters.
I have no problem "allowing" God to act as He wishes whether I am right or wrong.
THAT is the difference. THAT is you making up a God of your own desires - rather that dealing with the God that exists.
The 100% literalist fundamentalists have to adopt this irrational and unreasoned position that whatever God does is Good and they love him for it. They have to ignore everything God has taught us about Good and morality to proclaim this nonsense! It is no wonder they tolerate preachers who tell them to do as I say and not as I do. The idea that God who taught us Good and Evil does not need to adhere to it and we must still love him anyway is absurd. God would never do any such thing. It is man's retention of ancient ignorance and misunderstanding that demands such idiocy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
I for one will stand up and be counted and will say I refuse to believe and bow down to the god that is embraced by fundamentalism, the god that acts by the same nature as Nebuchadnezzar , who sent out a decree that all who would not bow down and worship the image of himself, would be cast in the fiery furnace, then justifies the nature of their god that they believe in by saying their god's ways are higher than ours.
In no way do I mean this in a disrespectful way to my Universalist brethren, but Mr5150, could you please respect that I am not a universalist and have never said that I am, even though I believe none will be lost. I am with them in many ways, but in many ways they are not with me. Inspite of our differences I have DM'ed them and encouraged them, even though its been evident that on this forum I'm in disagreement with them or vice versa.
The 100% literalist fundamentalists have to adopt this irrational and unreasoned position that whatever God does is Good and they love him for it. They have to ignore everything God has taught us about Good and morality to proclaim this nonsense! It is no wonder they tolerate preachers who tell them to do as I say and not as I do. The idea that God who taught us Good and Evil does not need to adhere to it and we must still love him anyway is absurd. God would never do any such thing. It is man's retention of ancient ignorance and misunderstanding that demands such idiocy.
Isn't that what faith in God is about? Believing in Him 100%? And you call it "irrational and unreasoned"?
Christ believed in the Father 100% - to the point of His death which He knew beforehand. That's very irrational and unreasoned and could be considered as unloving. Peter basically said the same thing when Christ mentioned how he would be killed - that it should never happen to him. Jesus rebuked him.
You guys need to check yourselves. Your faith in God is lacking.
And you seem OK with the fact that you would be willing to worship a god worse than the worst of mankind. More than okay with it, you take pride in it. You are proud that you would give blind allegiance to a being which is evil, simply because you believe that that evil being is the one in authority. You are unwilling to stand up for that which is good and right and somehow believe that makes you morally superior?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
Wow. Total loss of objectivity and context.
You are the one who loses all objectivity and context, not Pleroo. She has described your position accurately. You have no standards and are proud of it. God is OK no matter what kind of being He is . . . including the most Evil imaginable . . . just because He is God. That is just crazy. There is nothing honorable or noble or pious in such "blank check" blind devotion. I love God BECAUSE He IS Love and loves us . . . and has taught us to love Him and each other. I love Him BECAUSE He has taught us what is Good and what is Evil. He has taught us not to do Evil and He would never do Evil, period. There is no mystery there and no need for special pleading or excuses that pretend to make Evil Good because God does it. Rather than correct and revise the ancient ignorance that causes you to make these excuses for God . . . you would blindly accept an Evil God. Irrational.
And you seem OK with the fact that you would be willing to worship a god worse than the worst of mankind. More than okay with it, you take pride in it. You are proud that you would give blind allegiance to a being which is evil, simply because you believe that that evil being is the one in authority. You are unwilling to stand up for that which is good and right and somehow believe that makes you morally superior?
Game,set
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You are the one who loses all objectivity and context, not Pleroo. She has described your position accurately. You have no standards and are proud of it. God is OK no matter what kind of being He is . . . including the most Evil imaginable . . . just because He is God. That is just crazy. There is nothing honorable or noble or pious in such "blank check" blind devotion. I love God BECAUSE He IS Love and loves us . . . and has taught us to love Him and each other. I love Him BECAUSE He has taught us what is Good and what is Evil. He has taught us not to do Evil and He would never do Evil, period. There is no mystery there and no need for special pleading or excuses that pretend to make Evil Good because God does it.
And match
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
