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I really don't know about how much Calvinism there is in the US.
But I do know that Twin thinks you and I are damned to eternal torment for promoting UR (post #92), while we believe Twin will be saved. What a HUGE theological difference that is!
This does not turn Twin into a Calvinist, he might likewise be a Catholic or whatever, let him speak for himself; but I understand your sentiments.
1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV) says:
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
So the accusations are not surprising, it should not bother us; we should indeed be worried if universalism would become the majority view.
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. (Luke 6:26)
Zunz' rendering is in fact a bit unlucky, since it suggests that the haters of God are rewarded for their pretense, maybe I have misread it in the context though and "their bliss would be eternally" refers to Israel, which then would be in line with the revision of the Luther Bible; it is ambiguous in Zunz' translation as it is in the Hebrew.
What now? We will not agree, as we did not in the past. You have your translations and teachers you rely on, I have others.
Apparently we have not even a common foundation to discuss. I would accept the Darby translation as a compromise to discuss on its foundation, since he was no universalist (quite the contrary) and you cannot accuse him of any bias in this matter, on the other hand his translation is fairly literal. I do not accept the NIV to be reliable in any matter.
J. N. Darby and Edward Irving are the fathers of modern dispensationalism, despite being very popular today, taught what is not scriptural.
So with him coming from an unscriptural background, the Darby translation would not be considered to be an acceptable translation.
This does not turn Twin into a Calvinist, he might likewise be a Catholic or whatever, let him speak for himself; but I understand your sentiments.
1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV) says:
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
So the accusations are not surprising, it should not bother us; we should indeed be worried if universalism would become the majority view.
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. (Luke 6:26)
Since other scriptures clarify that "all" doesn't mean "all inclusive", it then makes UR a false gospel.
I have yet to read where a false gospel message produces the same result for the one who trusts in that as the true gospel message does. Those on the left of Jesus will not be saved.
I have yet to read where the typical UR'er doesn't have to finally admit that God has meet their approval before they would love such.
Since other scriptures clarify that "all" doesn't mean "all inclusive", it then makes UR a false gospel.
I have yet to read where a false gospel message produces the same result for the one who trusts in that as the true gospel message does. Those on the left of Jesus will not be saved.
I have yet to read where the typical UR'er doesn't have to finally admit that God has meet their approval before they would love such.
This is a strange standard, Twin. According to you, God does not have to meet any standard to be loved . . . not even His own. He has given us standards of righteousness but He does not have to adhere to them? I am sorry, Twin I trust God's own standards as unambiguously revealed by Jesus Christ . . . by both teaching and example! Under your rules there is no protection from loving Satan or any other Evil being if they deceive you sufficiently . . . because you cannot even use God's standards to test them . . . which I believe has occurred in mainstream Christianity.
This is a strange standard, Twin. According to you, God does not have to meet any standard to be loved . . . not even His own. He has given us standards of righteousness but He does not have to adhere to them? I am sorry, Twin I trust God's own standards as unambiguously revealed by Jesus Christ . . . by both teaching and example! Under your rules there is no protection from loving Satan or any other Evil being if they deceive you sufficiently . . . because you cannot even use God's standards to test them . . . which I believe has occurred in mainstream Christianity.
wow ....
how does saying
only belief in the Triune God,
Jesus is God,
salvation is only through Jesus
salvation is not based on works or obedience to the law
the Bible is God's word,
the scriptures speak to us,
that only those who have faith in the true God will be saved
and that God warns about
false teaching and their teachers for a good reason
false Christ's for a good reason
being deceived about empty words of non-existent wrath
Satan as a prowling lion seeking to devour
preaching a false gospel will be under God's curse
and that God tells people to search the Bible (scriptures) to define the truth ... not your stomach
to even conclude
According to you, God does not have to meet any standard to be loved . . . not even His own.
com' on man, if anything those here who are having a cow don't like the fact that God has a very uncompromising standard according to scriptures .... remember:
Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mark 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
Luke 13:24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door,because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
John 4:48 “Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”
Last edited by twin.spin; 05-05-2013 at 02:49 PM..
Originally posted by svenM: "Twin, the doctrine of everlasting punishment cannot be established on the word olam. This equally applies to the corresponding Greek words aion and aionios. You will remember that we had this discussion over and over again. The verses you cited were partly mistranslated or deliberately paraphrased."
Originally posted by svenM: "What now Twin? We will not agree, as we did not in the past.
You have your translations and teachers you rely on, I have others."
The debate really does come down to those two statements.
Once eternal is replaced by eonian, all other verses that were understood to support eternal torment are actually describing temporary conditions.
"In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God `is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the `all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.
REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html
Since other scriptures clarify that "all" doesn't mean "all inclusive", it then makes UR a false gospel.
I have yet to read where a false gospel message produces the same result for the one who trusts in that as the true gospel message does. Those on the left of Jesus will not be saved.
I have yet to read where the typical UR'er doesn't have to finally admit that God has meet their approval before they would love such.
So I guess we are par on par, there are verses where "all" are not literally all, and there are verses where "everlasting" does not literally last for ever.
Since we cannot even agree which Bible version we cite, I think we can end our discussion now.
I will use the current NIV or other translations which are considered "good" by theologians that I'm religiously affiliated with.
Although there are at least fifteen translations that translate aion/aionios literally instead of interpretively, the most popular versions are translated interpretively.
Why did God allow the most popular versions of His written word to be interpretively translated instead of literally translated?
In my opinion the reason is the same reason why God allows all other evils to temporarily prevail, and that is because He is eventually going to make it better for everyone that He did so.
Probably, God could not have allowed a better foil of contrast of evil versus good than to let His written word to be mistranslated. Against the black background of the theological false doctrines of never ending suffering or annihilation God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation using the paint brushes of His love that can never fail, and His grace that cannot be defeated.
THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL – RAY PRINZING “God is sovereign, and He controls all the interaction of evil and good, and causes all to redound to His own glory. It is not – what was lost by the fall was to be regained by redemption, BUT by the interaction of FALL AND REDEMPTION, God achieves greater, wiser, nobler, and higher goals for everyone than by the Adamic race remaining in its pristine state. Evil and good are synchronized to accomplish God’s will and purpose, so that the ultimate goal shall reveal all evil transformed back into good, and all negation cancelled out by GOOD. Evil is allowed for wise ends, and when these are secured it must cease to exist, for God will restore all things into good. HE controls all the interaction between evil and good until His purpose of the ages is fulfilled. Then shall God be All in all. We would not minimize the judgments of God, but the more the spirit of revelation unfolds the truth, the more we see God’s judgments in proper perspective, that they are remedial, corrective in their nature and used to bring forth a state of righteousness. They shall not be executed in unholy vengeance, for MERCY shall balance the score. God’s judgments are ever tempered with mercy, and when they have fulfilled their purpose, the judgments end. Mercy will outlast all the judgments, and will rejoice in the ultimate restoration of all that was perverted, corrupt, and evil. Mercy can operate on the basis of justice because Christ has gathered the whole into His own heart, and suffered to reconcile all to Himself."
You have been saying all along that if you (or anyone else) believes that God will save all, then you/they will be condemned to eternal hell. Do you still think that or have you realized that doesn't make sense?
Both of us have never experienced water before and can't swim, but have heard that it might be dangerous. We're sitting on a boat. You say "jump in, you'll be fine." I jump in and drown.
(a) water inhalation killed me.
(b) believing that it wouldn't was directly related to the promise you afforded.
Your message is that it doesn't matter your faith (or even no faith at all), we'll all end up in paradise. If you're wrong and historical Christianity is right,
(b) sin is the cause of my demise
(b) believing that it wouldn't was directly related to the promise you afforded.
Since you are offering salvation of all, not because the Bible is clear on it (since there are countless passages that say contrary), but because it makes us feel better about our family, friends, dead relatives, etc. that we would like to wish into heaven, I would like a guarantee from you that if I end up in hell because of your promise (see b above), we can switch places. If not, and you are not certain of the babble you proclaim, I suggest you study a bit and revise your gospel before you condemn yourself (per Gal. 1).
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