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Is "Pre-destined" about individual, essentially arbitrary choices of certain people, or is it about the "plan" for responses (as opposed to individual responders) to the message to be "elected?"
I think it's about the "plan" for responses...I think "pre-destined" is something we humans might feel we can be, but it's not something that we really are. We can go along with it though, if we recognize and believe that this ( preplanned, pre-destiny) is something we really want in life...I don't personally believe we can be pre-destined to live or act a certain way, destiny has nothing to do with what we plan in life, or what others have planned for us..... I feel that no-one can really know their own destiny.
Is "Pre-destined" about individual, essentially arbitrary choices of certain people, or is it about the "plan" for responses (as opposed to individual responders) to the message to be "elected?"
It means some are chosen for salvation.
Ephesians 1:4 states that we are chosen since before the foundations of the world. God has decided before creation that we would be holy and blameless before him -- at least those that are of Christ.
Romans 8-9 goes into that a lot more. Those he foreknew, he predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, and he called them, justified them, and glorified. In Romans 9 he goes into more detail---it's entirely up to him whom he wants to predestine. Some he may predestine for salvation, some he might not. That's his call.
It means God predestined mankind for salvation. That's how I interpret Romans on predestination. Also he predestined us unto good works that he would do through us by the in-working of the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1:4 states that we are chosen since before the foundations of the world. God has decided before creation that we would be holy and blameless before him -- at least those that are of Christ.
Romans 8-9 goes into that a lot more. Those he foreknew, he predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, and he called them, justified them, and glorified. In Romans 9 he goes into more detail---it's entirely up to him whom he wants to predestine. Some he may predestine for salvation, some he might not. That's his call.
Well if you really believe God is choosing to save some and others he is not choosing, why would you waste your time arguing about theology, getting saved, etc... since it is, as you say, up to God. And btw, I don't disagree with you that God is sovereign over all things. But I don't believe he predestined anyone for destruction except the son of perdition, of course.
Well if you really believe God is choosing to save some and others he is not choosing, why would you waste your time arguing about theology, getting saved, etc... since it is, as you say, up to God.
For one, it interests me.
For another....God tells us to study and show ourselves approved. We are to be ready in season and out.
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And btw, I don't disagree with you that God is sovereign over all things. But I don't believe he predestined anyone for destruction except the son of perdition, of course.
I don't know how else to handle Romans 9.
It says that he has the right to do with his creation what he wants, just as a potter can take a lump of clay and make it for honorable use, and and another for a dishonorable use.
Romans 9:22 "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"
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It says that he has the right to do with his creation what he wants, just as a potter can take a lump of clay and make it for honorable use, and and another for a dishonorable use.
Romans 9:22 "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"
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Were you not at one time a vessel of God's wrath? Were you not a vessel of dishonor with whom God was patient. If only you could see there are two of you bound together - one that must be destroyed, the other that will be glorified. I know you don't get it. Sorry.
Well if you really believe God is choosing to save some and others he is not choosing, why would you waste your time arguing about theology, getting saved, etc... since it is, as you say, up to God. And btw, I don't disagree with you that God is sovereign over all things. But I don't believe he predestined anyone for destruction except the son of perdition, of course.
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. ...
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit revealed that God only predestined the believer while not the unbeliever. To not correctly understand that is one of false teaching of Calvinists and those whithout the Holy Spirit.
Were you not at one time a vessel of God's wrath? Were you not a vessel of dishonor with whom God was patient. If only you could see there are two of you bound together - one that must be destroyed, the other that will be glorified. I know you don't get it. Sorry.
As I see it as well, Heartsong. The first Adam/ the old man/the flesh vs. the Christ/the new man/the spiritual man. I believe it's a theme that is even alluded to in the OT, where often a younger son supplants the eldest (eg. Jacob and Esau, ref. Romans 9: "It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.").
The Holy Spirit revealed that God only predestined the believer while not the unbeliever. To not correctly understand that is one of false teaching of Calvinists and those whithout the Holy Spirit.
So, God picked out whom He would save, but not whom He would not? And the ones who were not picked will be punished for their unbelief, but they weren't predestined?
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