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But you haven't clearly answered my question. The thread is about truth being offensive, and my point is it isn't and the one verse that's being used to back it up falls short when you look at it with an open mind.
What I am asking you is, was what Jesus said about eating his flesh and drinking his blood offensive ?, not whether It is offensive to you if you discovered I had been eating it and drinking his blood
I did answer your question, perhaps you didn't understand the question you asked.
You asked if I would find the body being eaten offensive. Yes I would, it would be really in poor taste.
MY first comments to the OP were, Who's truth? Every Christian you talk to has a DIFFERENT TRUTH. That's why I don't ever describe myself as Christian, I don't want someone who has talked to all these obnoxious, unforgiving, insistent, and most often RIDICULOUS people to define who I am or my message. Every denomination has every member with a different view on the truth, OR the person is 100% sheeple and just parrots cliches.
No one knows the truth. People take cute little verses, out of context, drop them in the chat and say SEE THIS IS THE TRUTH, but without knowing what they even said other than they had the word "truth" in them.
No one knows the truth to be the truth. They only have their working and growing knowledge and interpretation of things. The question is stacked. Here is a hyperbolic example.
Have you told your mother you are gay yet? (remember example)
If you say NO, I ask when will you tell her.
if you say yes, you admit you are gay. Either way, I assume you are gay and you own that if you answer at all.
That's how unfair this question is.
BLOOD/FLESH my answer stands pat. And if you don't like it, then you don't' understand it and are just aggravated that you can't pigeon hole me in the chat.
When Christ said this is his flesh and blood eat/drink, no that doesn't offend me. Your question does.
If it was actually his flesh and blood, I would be offended to say the least.
If you don't like the answer, ask a different question.
But before you ask a different question, tell me what your gifted with that enables you to determine the truth for everyone. Fair enough?
I've gotta say, I'm betting GOD is happy there is someone down here to explain to the world what the Truth is, instead of Him doing it. Sorta like the ole Bruce Almighty movie...
True, but at some point everyone was in the power of the evil one. I was obviously referring to those people who do not yet believe. It becomes clearer if you read it in context (or in original language )
You are about an arrogant thing aren't you? You slapped a verse down that said everyone. You gave no reasoning to think you meant or intended it to mean less than everyone. There was nothing obvious about it, you got busted on being incomplete. Own it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Having said that, the world IS under the power of the evil one. There are millions of people who have been saved, but even the saved ones still stumble.
That isn't necessarily true. THe immature saved ones stumble it's part of their growth. The mature ones, by definition, no longer stumble. What do you think WALK IN THE LIGHT AS HE DOES means? Do you think AS HE DOES means stumble????? That's preposterous. God doesn't stumble. At that point, if you ARE one who walks in the ligth as HE does, you are mature/ or perfect/ telioo and are like him. How much like Him? Eph 4:11-18, in every aspect as fully mature as Jesus the Christ was on earth. That's Bible, not my opinion. For you to say someone stumbles still, then, you have to deny Xian maturity, which would deny fellowship with God according to God. OR you have to edit key verses out of key books of the Bible.
So, I reject your presumption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Either way, Satan is still the "god of this age".
You worship a weak and pale God eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
2 Cor 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
THis verse contradicts your position above that even the believers must stumble. Because this, if it's to be a context for the whole bible, says your comment would apply to unbelievers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
The rest of the Bible does support it, but obviously you have missed the point here.
You don't want to go into a comprehensive chat on what the Bible says with me. I'll have you denying it's words within three points of the discussion, if not the FIRST three points. Your presumption you have such a higher understanding than I do, without knowing what I understand or believe, reveals how weak your confidence is in your own understanding and that is revealed by your pompous posturing.
Start a thread, let's talk this out. Perhaps the others would let us have at it one on one. I'm sure I'll learn something. Apparently you know it all already, so you may see it as a waste of your time. Hard to learn anything if you know it all, right?
Can you point out where you said what exactly it was what offended you.
For the 100th time, I have given your examples of the exact words, and they were right there on the first line of the the post you quoted: For example 'Jesus loves you'
Everything about the Gospel was offensive. You don't get it, because Christ never put you through it. You deny it, because you never experienced the offence of the cross, but millions of others have.
You might as well insist there is no water in the oceans, but I know there is, because I am looking at it.
Final post pcamps. I have tried, and tried, but you are not going to comprened this topic. Not today anyway.
No, it is you and your head-slapping smileys and self-promotion. You fail to understand the points people make, and you post without even knowing what the topic is, and then you call me names.
I removed the personal insults.
Final post to you.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 10-03-2013 at 08:29 AM..
Finn, your tone got to me. My post reflected it. I won't change it, that would be unfair, I believe in transparency.
I don't disagree that people still fall to temptation. I can not conclude that means Satan has a rule over the world. That's presumption, not a logical conclusion. And it's a lazy, convenient presumption at that. (I'm speaking of the argument there, not you, chillax.)
HOWEVER, the thought that people will ALWAYS sin on earth, simply isn't biblical. I understand the arguments for it, but you have to avoid the obvious and make "stories" to get there on an exegetical conclusion.
I think it would be easier to talk with you, if you weren't presuming to be correct and be so unforgiving all the time. I understand we wouldn't say something if we didn't think we were correct, ( I HOPE at least), but leave yourself room to learn something.
I had my heiney handed to me yesterday on some Greek that I simply hadn't even checked out before. The conversation about Paul saying he was their father, christ said, not to call folks father... I had to own my error and learn from it. To do that I had to allow that I could be wrong.
I'm not saying you are a bad guy or anything, just tedious. But I'm sure I come across as such too, so I'm not even isolating you out. HEck, I guess I'm whining.... but there are some valid thoughts for you to consider in there.
Finn, your tone got to me. My post reflected it. I won't change it, that would be unfair, I believe in transparency.
I don't disagree that people still fall to temptation. I can not conclude that means Satan has a rule over the world. That's presumption, not a logical conclusion. And it's a lazy, convenient presumption at that. (I'm speaking of the argument there, not you, chillax.)
HOWEVER, the thought that people will ALWAYS sin on earth, simply isn't biblical. I understand the arguments for it, but you have to avoid the obvious and make "stories" to get there on an exegetical conclusion.
I think it would be easier to talk with you, if you weren't presuming to be correct and be so unforgiving all the time. I understand we wouldn't say something if we didn't think we were correct, ( I HOPE at least), but leave yourself room to learn something.
I had my heiney handed to me yesterday on some Greek that I simply hadn't even checked out before. The conversation about Paul saying he was their father, christ said, not to call folks father... I had to own my error and learn from it. To do that I had to allow that I could be wrong.
I'm not saying you are a bad guy or anything, just tedious. But I'm sure I come across as such too, so I'm not even isolating you out. HEck, I guess I'm whining.... but there are some valid thoughts for you to consider in there.
Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?" Why does the truth offend?
What offended many people was for several reasons:
(1) Jesus just only said that belief in him and nothing else is the will of the Father for eternal life.
"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
This offends people who promote \ argue for:
faith and works
faith and obedience to the law
what about those who never get to hear
Universalists that changes Jesus' words from "everyone who looks and believes" to "eventually everyone will look and will believe"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2) Jesus just claimed that he was the "I AM" \ the Jehovah. He claimed he was equal to the Father in regards to his deity.
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from himcomes to me.
what offends people is what Jesus doesn't say. He doesn't say:
comes to me..... one of the personages of God
comes to me..... for I'm lesser than Father \ or the Father is greater than me
(3) Jesus went one step further ... he claimed he is the same who sustained the ancestors by eating manna from heaven, one who eats his flesh will live forever.
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
what offends people is that:
it excludes any other religions\faith as possible means to live forever
Buddhism .... nope
Judaism .... nope
Muslim ..... nope
Hinduism .... nope
enlighten'ism .... nope
mysticism ..... nope
self-righteous' ism (combining works and faith \ obedience to the law and faith)
it offends those who claim "represents" instead of "is" when Jesus said:
Matthew 26:26
Jesustook bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me
Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?" Why does the truth offend?
What offended many people was for several reasons:
(1) Jesus just only said that belief in him and nothing else is the will of the Father for eternal life.
"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
This offends people who promote \ argue for:
faith and works
faith and obedience to the law
what about those who never get to hear
Universalists that changes Jesus' words from "everyone who looks and believes" to "eventually everyone will look and will believe"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2) Jesus just claimed that he was the "I AM" \ the Jehovah. He claimed he was equal to the Father in regards to his deity.
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from himcomes to me.
what offends people is what Jesus doesn't say. He doesn't say:
comes to me..... one of the personages of God
comes to me..... for I'm lesser than Father \ or the Father is greater than me
(3) Jesus went one step further ... he claimed he is the same who sustained the ancestors by eating manna from heaven, one who eats his flesh will live forever.
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
what offends people is that:
it excludes any other religions\faith as possible means to live forever
Buddhism .... nope
Judaism .... nope
Muslim ..... nope
Hinduism .... nope
enlighten'ism .... nope
mysticism ..... nope
self-righteous' ism (combining works and faith \ obedience to the law and faith)
it offends those who claim "represents" instead of "is" when Jesus said:
Matthew 26:26
Jesustook bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
This is a great Spirit-led post I believe.
No other way than by the Person of Jesus Christ can one be reconciled. Not by our righteousness, but by His.. This offends our PRIDE which wants to be reconciled to God through our own merit, but God makes it clear that our own merit will not suffice but His imputed righteousness to the unrighteous sinner by Faith..
Every religious system on earth adds man's personal righteousness as merit, which appeals to our Pride. We are entirely DEPENDENT upon the PERSON of Jesus Christ for Salvation, to eat and drink of His sacrifice and what He's done for us in redemption.
No, it is you and your head-slapping smileys and self-promotion. You fail to understand the points people make, and you post without even knowing what the topic is, and then you call me names.
I removed the personal insults.
Final post to you.
Self promotion? It's self promotion admitting I've been wrong more than once the few days and I was willing to accept it. Incredible.
Personal insults? Unless you think being wrong and that being mentioned is a personal insult, I don't see any personal insults.
Your post I was referencing was chock full of "power of presumption" from you. You expect us to accept what you say because you said it. That, dear friend, is arrogant. That's not insulting. That's the English language word for that behavior.
I was ignorant of a word yesterday. It's not insulting, I was wrong. I ALSO presumed I knew what I was talking about. It seemed so obvious I never looked into it further. While I usually really dig in before I make a position, I relaxed on that one and I made a fool of myself. I was willing to listen and be wrong though.
I don't see anything in your posts that show you could possibly ever be wrong. You are too busy being right. That's not insulting, that's the public demonstration you exhibit. If you don't like that, YOU control the behavior.
And, I'd love to see where I was off topic. I know I had some posts removed for being off topic in another thread, but I couldn't learn the lesson there what was considered off topic so it's likely I will make the same mistake again.
You made a claim as if it were an absolute truth in this discussion. It was a key point to one of your arguments. It was not an absolute truth. I revealed that. You imply I'm insulting you.
What "names" did I call you? Name calling is / ad hominem. I did not commit an ad hominem. You can not find one.
For the 100th time, I have given your examples of the exact words, and they were right there on the first line of the the post you quoted: For example 'Jesus loves you'
Everything about the Gospel was offensive. You don't get it, because Christ never put you through it. You deny it, because you never experienced the offence of the cross, but millions of others have.
You might as well insist there is no water in the oceans, but I know there is, because I am looking at it.
Final post pcamps. I have tried, and tried, but you are not going to comprened this topic. Not today anyway.
You are so much smarter than everyone, but you aren't arrogant. I get it. Did you mean comprehend there?
Finn, you are worth reaching out to. But like my alcoholic friend, until he admitted he had a problem, we couldn't help him.
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