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If you have a problem with the cross of JESUS Christ, than you have a BIG problem as there is no other way for you to be forgiven for your rebellion.
The preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that are perishing, but to us that are saved it is the power of God. (Bible paraphrase).
The power is in the BLOOD. This is a common theme throughout Scripture. Without the shedding of innocent blood there can be no forgiveness of sins. The sacrificial atoning death of the innocent (another) in the place of ME (the guilty) is the offense of the cross. Abel offered a better sacrifice (the ordained blood sacrifice) than Cain (His own Works from the cursed ground).
I am guilty and so are YOU for our rebellion. I'm forgiven. Are you? If JESUS is not YOUR Savior dying in YOUR PLACE as a Sinner on that cross than YOU will have to answer for ALL of your sins before a HOLY GOD.
Every THOUGHT .. NOTHING will be secret.. ALL will be made manifest..
ETERNAL SHAME..
This is one to sit, think, and pray on...
GOD has initiated Salvation through JESUS Christ. We must respond in repentance and trust in Him. JESUS is waiting for ALL to come, but not all will come.. Pride and lack of fear of God look to be the prime reasons why people do not come. God receives the humble repentant heart, but resists the proud.
This is the kind of stuff that is not helpful to people who have questions. People are allowed to question, to seek, to wish to understand. Your answer does not help people, it is just meant to make them feel ashamed or embarrassed. I am not ashamed or embarrassed by my questions, because without asking questions, how can one ever find the answer?
Wrong! Christianity's foundation is the Resurrection and Jesus's words and actions. Are you saying that nothing he said or did before the crucifixion mattered? His death was one part of the salvation story, and yet the death is focused on as the symbol, rather than his life.
I'm saying Jesus' primary mission was to offer Himself as a sacrifice for our sin. Without His redemptive work, we would have no hope. While His words and deeds are important for us to know & emulate, our foundation is built on the cross.
I'm saying Jesus' primary mission was to offer Himself as a sacrifice for our sin. Without His redemptive work, we would have no hope. While His words and deeds are important for us to know & emulate, our foundation is built on the cross.
And I disagree with you. His primary mission was to let people know that God loved them - all of them, not just Jews, not just Romans, not just whoever, everyone - and to love one another like God loves us. And that with belief they would all be saved. That is FAR more important than how he died or the place he died.
MY foundation is not built on the cross, a symbol of death. MY foundation is built on the everlasting love of God.
And I disagree with you.His primary mission was to let people know that God loved them - all of them, not just Jews, not just Romans, not just whoever, everyone - and to love one another like God loves us. And that with belief they would all be saved. That is FAR more important than how he died or the place he died.
MY foundation is not built on the cross, a symbol of death. MY foundation is built on the everlasting love of God.
He showed God's love by dying for our sins. His redemptive work was the mechanism by which God could forgive us. The empty cross is not a symbol of death, but rather of victory over death. The cross represents God's everlasting love for humanity.
I'm interested in your point 3. Of course there were "a people of God" before the earthly incarnation of Jesus, anyone familiar with the bible knows that. What I'd like to know is what do you think was different about, "The plan". By what means were the people of God saved from their sins before Jesus came in the flesh to this earth?
Well, the Jews were saved under the law.
Before there was a Jew, there was Melchizedek's priesthood. This is the priesthood Jesus is fashioned after. Under all three Salvation is by Grace. BLOOD does not force God to forgive anyone, if it does he's not omniscient. It's God's Grace at keeping a covenant He does not have to keep because there is no one that can enforce GOD's behavior but God. Grace is all there is.
Christ's Church is established after Melchizedeks, and is run like Mel's, so I think it's safe to assume that Mel's was by Grace as well. There was no Jew nor Gentile in Mel's church, as there were not yet any Jews.
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Originally Posted by lucknow
The birth, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus is not subject to any kind of limitations imposed by time. It's an eternal plan.
While I don't disagree with this in general, I would point out, there is nothing but deduction and supposition to that claim. There is less biblical argument for this than there is for Trinity which is hotly debatable.
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Originally Posted by lucknow
The saints of the OT were saved in exactly the same way the NT saints are, were and will be. The saints of the OT were saved by faith and trust in the promises of God.
We agree fully on this point.
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Originally Posted by lucknow
God promised a saviour and that saviour was Jesus Christ.
God "saved" people before the savior was promised.
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Originally Posted by lucknow
What he did for his people was effectual from the beginning to the end of time. If you don't see this, you have missed the main purpose of the entire OT.
Here we go with the accusations.... I'll reply in kind. IF YOU think this, then you have edited the uncomfortable parts out of your bible to make your claim. :| I think it's best to stick to the arguments. Proclaiming you are right, just because you claim you are right, is rather pointless.
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Originally Posted by lucknow
How does it say that Abraham was considered righteous by God?
By his works.
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Originally Posted by lucknow
It was solely that Abraham believed and trusted in God.
Which is ONLY known because of his works.
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Originally Posted by lucknow
He was still believing that God would give him descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky while he had Isaac tied up and about to sacrifice him on an alter. When God stayed his hand and told him, "I will provide a lamb" it was much more than a temporal promise. Who then are the heirs to the Promises made by God to Abraham? The bible tells us that it us, The Christians who are the true seed. For we are the heirs not by the flesh but by faith.
If the Levitical laws did not save the Jews, then God was a liar.
I think your answer is a bit more Augustinian syllogism than scripture. In general I can agree with all you said if we keep it super simplified like this. There's just a lot more to it. And it builds up, Christ, not take away as your reaction seems to think you feel.
Sorry if my comment upset you. You seem quite defensive in the comments.
Wrong! Christianity's foundation is the Resurrection and Jesus's words and actions. Are you saying that nothing he said or did before the crucifixion mattered? His death was one part of the salvation story, and yet the death is focused on as the symbol, rather than his life.
Amen, according to the Bible, if you don't have the love right, you are going to hell. Period. The LOVE as Christ described it would result in works. Works don't save you, but if you don't have them, you aren't saved. I.E. it's how you live, not how well you can spit cliches and verses in a chat forum.
Amen, according to the Bible, if you don't have the love right, you are going to hell. Period. The LOVE as Christ described it would result in works. Works don't save you, but if you don't have them, you aren't saved. I.E. it's how you live, not how well you can spit cliches and verses in a chat forum.
You had me up until that bolded point.
But I'm holding back disagreement until you clarify what you mean by it.
For those of you who responded positively or with understanding - thank you!
Those who knee-jerked Bible verses and, I assume, hymn lyrics? - that's the kind of response I was should have expected - no thought, no consideration - just throw stuff at people and tell them they have to believe it. That's a big turn off from religion. And yes, I know you don't care, but people have doubts and questions and thoughtful answers are nice.
The use of Bible verses to help in answering your question is not a knee-jerk reaction. The accusation that no thought or consideration was given is also not true. You asked why a cross represents Christianity. I therefore told you in post #2 what the cross represents . That cross you have a problem with is the means by which God made salvation possible for man and a reality for anyone who places his faith in Christ.
The judgment of man's sins took place on the Cross when Jesus bore our sins in His own body and paid the penalty for them. Having taken the punishment for mans sins which the justice of God required, Jesus then dismissed His spirit from His body and died physically. He rose again on the third day. Jesus' death and resurrection are both a part of the gospel message. Without the Cross there would have been no resurrection. Because of Jesus' death on the Cross, the Cross which was an instrument death comes to represent salvation.
But I'm holding back disagreement until you clarify what you mean by it.
heheh thank you for asking first.
According to the Jahnian comment above, IF you love, then He is in you and you are in Him.
Without HIM you aren't "saved" (whatever that means...)
So lacking HIM, means you don't have the love right.
Love is the single most indicator of if a person is HIS or not.
Love results in works. Gal 5:6 James 1-2.
All the altar calls, baptisms, milk and cookie suppers you have are pointless if you don't have the love right. Getting the love right is by lifestyle, not by proclamation. "I love you in Christ" that I hear so many say, is about the single most silly thing I hear in the Church. Saying it means nothing. If you DO love them as Christ commanded (Matt 5:43-48) then you wouldn't be talking about it, you'd be showing it.
I'm giving you my break /down exegetics of that verse. None of this is making comments about any particular individual.
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