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So the best place to be then is of an attitude of "forgive them Father for they know not what they do"?. Wasn't this the attitude of him towards those lying murderers who nailed him to the cross ?.
Good point! - and I think you are probably right about our attitude of cutting others some slack.
-- But, don't you think that Jesus was referring to the almost timeless enormity of what was transpiring on the cross at Calvary .... and not simply saying, "Father, forgive all lies and murder, because people really don't know know they are lying and killing others?"
Good point! - But, don't you think that Jesus was referring to the almost timeless enormity of what was transpiring on the cross at Calvary .... and not simply saying, "Father, forgive all lies and murder, because people really don't know know they are lying and killing others?"
If we believe it was the world not just murderers that nailed him there, to me it goes without saying that it is the world that he said "father forgive them for they know not what they do".
I believe we became so far removed from the ways and thoughts of God by going astray from them, that we became lost,(and to see and acknowledge this), I can easily understand why Jesus uttered those wonderful words.
If God is the judge of our actions, he's going to judge our whole life. Accepting Jesus doesn't give you a clean slate and not accepting Jesus does not dirty the good persons slate.
From what I understand, if you accept and believe in Jesus Christ, you are saved. Of course you can't go around sinning and must be repentant. But once you declare your belief, you're "in." If a "good" person is walking around but hasn't accepted Jesus and the beliefs about Him, I might still be a little scared for them. This is just based on what I've been learning since joining a non-denominational church. Could be all wrong. I think all of us will find out what's REALLY TRUE when we meet Him on our appointed day.
Do you jump for joy whenever you see a sinner get caught in sin and anticipate THEIR JUDGMENT?
A Christians duty is to SHINE LIGHT on sin, but not as it taking them before BLOOD THRISTY Carnal natured men who know nothing of this person's character and can only desire sacrifice.. not mercy.
Nope. In fact I spend pretty much zero time thinking about other people's carnal sins.
Christians spend WAY too much time concentrating on what other people do. Many seem to spend a lot of time thinking about other people and fornication. That fascination is beyond bizarre to me.
My Christian duty is to follow Christ. Which means following His examples of brotherhood, kindness, charity and love
If you accept what He did in totality - then yes, you've been removed from one state (sin) and put into another state (righteousness).
That's the way Romans teaches it, but that's not the way it's accepted by today's "believers". If we still trip over acts (verb), then we're looking at Christ's sacrifice as a Band-Aid instead of a once-for-all event.
Even the OT sacrifice made a family clean for a year. What is Calvary then?
Newbie here. A thanks to little elmer, 'cause I found him on a web search I did under a certain category...as he said...do I dare say, Universal Restoration! Oops, there, I said it!
There is a lot of confusion as to the state that we are in, and I would say that the state you are in, is...the state that you are in! Duh!
I would like to explain this in as short a post as I can, and even though I don't have full knowledge of everything, I would like to show the things that He has shown me.
We are all sinners in the flesh, but the secret is to remove ourselves from the flesh. By doing this, we remove ourselves from the law, because by placing ourselves in the faith of Christ Jesus, is the way towards placing us 'in Christ'. Being 'in Christ' is the end of this, and I agree with all that little elmer has said in that way. I go a bit further though, in that I don't refuse to look in the rear view mirror, mainly because the mechanics of God's salvation and how it works on all of our being is essential to our understanding. We don't want to 'leave' our place 'in Christ', but it helps us (and others looking for answers), to know how it all works and to keep that 'dead body' behind us where it belongs. Even though it is dead, we tend to go back to it, and looking in the rear view mirror from time to time reminds us of the need to keep driving forward.
Instead of saying 'in Christ', Paul often uses the term 'in the spirit', which is essentially the same thing. What did Jesus say about it? After all, if there is a true authority on the subject, He would be the one, right? Jesus said, “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. “He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. Matt. 10:38,39
Breaking this down, we see that the word 'life' in these verses is the Greek 'psuche', which is 'soul'. And the soul is basically the decision making part of our being. Jesus is saying, "if you 'find' your life, and are 'really into yourself', you will lose it. But if you 'lose' your life, or 'cast it aside' in exchange for Jesus' life, you will find it." Why did Jesus say "for My sake"? Paul said, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Jesus came to earth to die for our sins, but another thing that He did was to show us His perfect life; the perfect life that is the only life worthy and sinless, and hence able to be raised in resurrection. In this He showed us 'the way' to live and become 'his brethren', by giving our lives for Him.
Paul often calls this soul part of our being 'the flesh', and in Galatians 5:17 he speaks of the war that goes on inside all believers in Jesus. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. When we are bearing our crosses, (which is realizing that God is working all things for our good and we are not following our own selfish desires but cooperating with God), then we are 'in Christ". Jesus also said, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." Matt 16:24. Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.” Mark 10:21 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." Luke 9:24 “And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple." Luke 14:27
Jesus also explains...“For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?" Matt 16:26“Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?" Mark 8:37
There is a great confusion caused here in most of Christianity in the effort to reconcile these things. How do we avoid this eternal punishment? The problem is that we have been looking at it from the wrong perspective. First off, God is the Creator. He doesn't want any of us to perish. Do we really think that God was incapable, in the beginning, of devising a plan to save everyone? According to most Christians, most of the world is going to end up in eternal torment. That's NOT the God I serve, nor is it a God that I would want to serve!
Jesus also said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt 10:28 Why didn't Jesus say anything about the spirit in this verse? We know that Christians are body, soul, and spirit from Paul's teachings. The answer is that when a Christian is acting in 'the flesh', he is following his own soul and/or body, and that 'flesh' is under the law and condemned. But when he is 'in Christ', he is following the Lord and is 'in the spirit, or he is 'in Christ'. The 'Spirit' is not condemned, nor destroyed. In Ecclesiastes 12:7, it says, "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it."
The 'cross' is the self denial of soul and body. When Jesus talks of an 'exchange' for a man's soul, He is speaking of giving up 'wants and desires' and accepting what God has for us. This places us in His hands and we have to trust Him. He will fulfill the desires of our hearts, when our hearts are in concert with Him. The answer for 'eternal torment' then becomes clear. If we live in the flesh, obeying our own wants and desires, since our souls are corrupt, we fall under condemnation. We know that our bodies are corrupt and will pass away, but rarely does anyone consider that our souls are corrupt and will pass away also, but Jesus has given us the method to 'exchange' OUR souls for His life. In this way, our souls are filled with His life, our work is His work, and this portion of our being is not condemned. By following Jesus and staying 'in Christ', we are effectively allowing our souls to be judged as if already dead and perished, and when God looks at us, He sees only Jesus.
But what about final judgment?...Paul also explained this. He said, For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 The part of your soul that you keep is the 'wood, hay, and straw' that you work through your own way. The part that you exchange for life 'in Christ' is the gold, silver, and precious stones. Gehenna, or 'hell', is the 'garbage heap' of mankind's ungodly desires and they will be burned by fire. The fire proceeds from the Throne. How long will this 'burning' last? Well, how long would straw, hay, and wood last in a blast furnace? This is why Moses wasn't allowed to see God's face. He would have been toast! The only thing that will be left standing in the presence of God are the things that ARE Godly, and these are the things 'in Christ' that are the only things worthy to pass through the fire. And the 'fire' is eternal, and will never pass away, because it is part of God's character.
So in this I see that we will lose all of our bodies, to be replaced by a new eternal body; we will lose the portion of our soul that is not 'in Christ'; and our Spirit will remain full as it was given to us. Many places the Bible uses the word 'perish', and this is a forever word. The only way to come out of this life complete, is to give your life to Jesus. I am not referring to a person becoming a monk or perhaps a recluse, I'm just saying that God has a life for each of us, and only God knows how to direct it. What we try to keep of our selfish lives will be burned away; what we give up of our selfishness to follow Jesus will remain. I believe that is why Jesus said “And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all."
If the follower of Christ have a uncondemnation calling on their lives where this minister is praying to Jesus for redemption and cleansing for the other person who may have sins , then Holy spirit will give the minister of this calling a pass ...... Other than that Christians are not called to judge others ..... A man was a complainer of his neighbor and he attracted demons to posses the people he was complaining about , which is rebellion and witchcraft , then believers need to forsake this rebellion for peace sake in Christ .... then there is gay basher or abortion haters or evolution haters which is sin as believers need to pray for these people and not judge .... As Christians must always know is that Jesus is the judge , as He has the redemption power ........ Then there is a man who was divorced and the county clerk will never forget this sin which if repented of is gone to Jesus
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