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When i looked up perfect, it meant complete, so we are to be complete in Christ. I dont think anyone after they get saved and go the rest of their life without committing a sin, even if they try 100%, they will slip up as they are human and bound to mistakes.
Jesus was a human. I think many people in this thread are missing the point. Jesus came to give you a different nature (His nature) - one that overcomes sin - just as He did.
Now to your point, that we will make mistakes. That is true, and we are told to confess those sins for forgiveness. Confession is not just lip service or simply saying I'm sorry but means to address the problem and turn from and make a wrong, right.
If we do that the sin is forgiven and no longer. Therefore, we would be without sin. If we don't do such and don't make it right then we still have the sin and sin is debt and must be paid for.
They are still convinced though they can keep the Torah, even though they start the Sabbath on Saturday morning and say the Sabbath is from sunrise to Sunset Saturday since they bible says remember the Sabbath Day.
I thought holding a grudge is a sin and most Messianic's have huge grudges against Christianity and are always taking cheap shots at Christians in conversations.
They are still convinced though they can keep the Torah, even though they start the Sabbath on Saturday morning and say the Sabbath is from sunrise to Sunset Saturday since they bible says remember the Sabbath Day.
There's nearly as much variation among Messianics as there is among Baptists
But if they're keeping the Sabbath, it should be from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.
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I thought holding a grudge is a sin and most Messianic's have huge grudges against Christianity and are always taking cheap shots at Christians in conversations.
As a rabbi once said, "Forgiveness is in the New Testament, not the Old Testament."
A lot of Messianics are what I'd call "Red Letter" believers--they only accept the specific things Jesus said. Some reject everything Pauline, including the book of Acts, kind of like reverse Marcionists.
There's nearly as much variation among Messianics as there is among Baptists
But if they're keeping the Sabbath, it should be from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.
As a rabbi once said, "Forgiveness is in the New Testament, not the Old Testament."
A lot of Messianics are what I'd call "Red Letter" believers--they only accept the specific things Jesus said. Some reject everything Pauline, including the book of Acts, kind of like reverse Marcionists.
Apparently the reasoning for a Satruday sunrise to sunset Sabbath is that Gen 1 says:
So the evening and the morning were the first day.
So the evening and the morning were the second day.
So the evening and the morning were the third day.
So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Gen
2 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
So since God doesnt say (evening and the morning ) for the 7th day, they dont have to keep it from Sundown Friday. To me, it seems clear that a day in the eyes of God is a full 24hrs which consist of night and day, but they claimed it is the Day we are supposed to keep holy. I was so confused at that time, I just stop talking since it just makes no sense and sounded like they were sinning every Saturday even though they claim they dont sin because they keep the Torah. And these are not the 1st group I have ran into that claim a Saturday sunrise to Sat sunset in regard to how the Sabbath must be observed.
So since God doesnt say (evening and the morning ) for the 7th day, they dont have to keep it from Sundown Friday. To me, it seems clear that a day in the eyes of God is a full 24hrs which consist of night and day, but they claimed it is the Day we are supposed to keep holy. I was so confused at that time, I just stop talking since it just makes no sense and sounded like they were sinning every Saturday even though they claim they dont sin because they keep the Torah. And these are not the 1st group I have ran into that claim a Saturday sunrise to Sat sunset in regard to how the Sabbath must be observed.
OTOH, orthodox Jews--who I'd consider the authorities on such stuff--go from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. But as I said, Messiancs tend to vary greatly.
The apostle Paul himself said he was the chief of sinners. He talked about how he did the things he didn't want to do. If he couldn't figure out how to live sin-free, I'm not going to suggest I'm any better.
That was him in the flesh, he also said who will deliver me from this state of death, of doing that which I don't want to do and what I don't want to do I do?,and got his answer when he asked...... Thanks be to God was what he hollered when he saw himself other than what he was in the flesh, seeing himself as a poor old miserable sinner to Paul was being carnally minded and to take his focus off how he saw himself and looking at himself how God saw him was life and peace. It explains it quite clearly in the first few verses of romans 8.
Last edited by pcamps; 12-10-2013 at 01:13 PM..
Reason: My typical poor english
That was him in the flesh, he also said who will deliver me from this state of death, of doing that which I don't want to do and what I don't want to do I do?,and got his answer when he asked......
And last time I looked, I have a body of flesh and blood -- just as Paul did. The point, of course, is that until we get to heaven, we are stuck with the problems of the flesh.
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Thanks be to God was what he hollered when he saw himself other than what he was in the flesh, seeing himself as a poor old miserable sinner to Paul was being carnally minded and to take his focus off how he saw himself and looking at himself how God saw him was life and peace. It explains it quite clearly in the first few verses of romans 8.
Romans 8 says that there is no condemnation in Christ. I wholeheartedly agree with that. We are not considered unrighteous because we sin. If we have trusted Christ we are righteous before God.
But we are still sinners. That is clear. Not a one of us can say that we have stopped doing what we shouldn't do.
And last time I looked, I have a body of flesh and blood -- just as Paul did. The point, of course, is that until we get to heaven, we are stuck with the problems of the flesh.
Romans 8 says that there is no condemnation in Christ. I wholeheartedly agree with that. We are not considered unrighteous because we sin. If we have trusted Christ we are righteous before God.
But we are still sinners. That is clear. Not a one of us can say that we have stopped doing what we shouldn't do.
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. Romans 6:1-4
If only the church had teachers that knew the answer to this victorious Christian life Paul speaks of.
I will tell you something for nothing. You cannot manifest anything other than what you believe yourself to be, in fact it is impossible to do otherwise. Paul wrote that Abraham became what God declared him to be, by not considering what he was in the flesh, but by being fully convinced by continually and steadfastly considering what God declared him to be(Paul is not telling us a story about Abraham, but a lesson in being who God says we are), read it for yourself in Romans 4.
Grace is not covering your sin while you believe you are sinner, and obviously has not taken it away if you still believe you are sinner. So saying you are a sinner saved by grace is a false doctrine.
To call God's workmanship a sinner is to believe what you see in the flesh his workmanship and an insult to his handiwork. . The scripture also teaches we(the real us) are new creations, so how does calling yourself a sinner fit with that ?.
That the sharing of your faith may become effective by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.
Now a person who does this^^^^^, their testimony is not I'm a sinner saved by grace, but his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works.
That was him in the flesh, he also said who will deliver me from this state of death, of doing that which I don't want to do and what I don't want to do I do?,and got his answer when he asked...... Thanks be to God was what he hollered when he saw himself other than what he was in the flesh, seeing himself as a poor old miserable sinner to Paul was being carnally minded and to take his focus off how he saw himself and looking at himself how God saw him was life and peace. It explains it quite clearly in the first few verses of romans 8.
It's beneficial to read Romans 7 & 8 together to get Paul's full intent. Even taking it out of context I don't arrive at the conclusion we are sinless upon justification and during the process of sanctification. I wish I was.
It's beneficial to read Romans 7 & 8 together to get Paul's full intent. Even taking it out of context I don't arrive at the conclusion we are sinless upon justification and during the process of sanctification. I wish I was.
I kinda said that in my post.
Paul looked for an answer to this and got it........... O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?, and it was far more glorious than I'm just a poor old sinner saved by grace. What he saw was himself seated in heavenly places, not somewhere in the future but in is experience in the now, which blinded is view of himself(what he is in the flesh) but opened his eyes to who he really is in Christ.
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