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So tell me what false gospel the church I attend preaches...
If it preaches either ET or AN . . . it is a false Gospel. The Good News is that salvation is ALL about what Christ did, not what we do or do not do. Sanctification is all about what we do or do not do . . . and that is to "love God and each other."
Bright Hope for Tomorrow;21339934]Katie, all churches were started in an attempt to get people back to the bible, according to the way they interpreted it. Smyth started the Baptist Church, Wesley started the Methodist Church, Luther the Lutheran, etc. Campbell starting the Church of Christ is no different than why any of the others were formed. They thought they were right and the others were wrong.
Yes but the difference between Smyth, Wesley, Luther, and Cambell is that Smyth, Wesley, and Luther went beyond what was written. They threw in their own ideas and rules. Cambell stuck to the Book. All the people you mentioned taught faith alone, but none could prove it by example. Cambell said, "Speak where the Bible speaks. Be silent where the Bible is silent." I could point out dozens of things that the denoms you referenced do that are not found in the Bible. The Bible has to be the authority for any church. If a church is following the pattern of worship, work, and organization, then they are the Lord's church.
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The Church of Christ and Church of God in the towns I've lived in are TOTALLY different, so I'm really confused by what you said. It doesn't matter at all what the church is named, and I'm sure God doesn't care about "pattern" of worship or organization.
Sorry I confused you. Church of Christ, church of God are Biblical names for the Lord's church. I should point out to you that just because a group calls themselves church of Christ doesn't mean they are the Lord's church. By their fruits you will know them. You would have to look at their worship, their works, and their organization and compare them to the New Testament church.
God very much cares about our pattern of worship. You probably read my post about Abel and Cain, how Abel offered a better sacrifice. His sacrifice was better because it was offered by faith. Obviously, God had commanded an animal sacrifice, the shedding of blood, but Cain had his own ideas. The same can be said for our worship. If you read about the church in the New Testament, they worshipped in a particular way. They prayed, they sang praises to the Lord, they took a collection for the saints, the preached the word, and most importantly they shared the Lord's Supper. Those are all the acts of worship found in the New Testamanent. So if a congregation follows that same pattern, then they are worshipping the way God intended.
Now what if someone decides to add a couple things to worship not commanded by God or practiced by the church in the NT? Even though some things they may add seem innocent, are they pleasing to God? I say no, because they are going beyong what God asked them to do. Do you see what I am saying?
If you look at the orgainization of the New Testament church, they had elders and deacons, teachers and preachers. Yet, in the catholic church, you see a heirarchy: Pope, Cardinals, etc. etc. In protestant churches, you see men addressed as Reverend, and being elevated above the congregation. Yet, that is not written in the New Testament.
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I'm certainly not bashing your church, but I'm just amazed you all really believe rebuilding a church to appear like the original means it's the church Jesus started.
Not a problem. I know you are not bashing, and I appreciate your questions and comments about it. It gives me the opportunity to explain exactly what the church of Christ is. When I say church of Christ, I am not talking about any building or denomination. I am talking about the Lord's church, the one He built, the one He died for. We know that it is alive and well. He promised that to us.
So if starting a congregation to resemble the original doesn't make it the Lord's church, then I ask you, what does make the Lord's church? And where is the Lord's church now?
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I'm Baptist, and as I told you on the other thread, I stopped believing in a literal hell in 2005 so I'm not the typical Baptist. (P.S. I don't know if you saw that post or not because you didn't respond. You asked me if I'm a universalist and I addressed that.)[/
Yes I did see that. I am assuming you do believe in a literal heaven? And if you don't believe in a literal hell, where do you think unbelievers go when they die? Are they punished in some way? Do you think they get a second chance?
I actually liked your post. You asked some really good questions, and I really appreciated them.
If it preaches either ET or AN . . . it is a false Gospel. The Good News is that salvation is ALL about what Christ did, not what we do or do not do. Sanctification is all about what we do or do not do . . . and that is to "love God and each other."
Sorry Mystic, but we do have a role to play in our salvation. Every example found in the Bible shows people manifesting their faith (doing a work) prior to salvation. Just as James said, we are justified by faith and works.
I find that the Bible teaches God Himself gives out His Holy Spirit, that It does not come from man. I'll share a couple instances.
Acts 11
He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. 14He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized witha water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?”
Acts 10 42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” 44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tonguesb and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Yes I'm very familiar with the story of Cornelius. I'm sure you are aware that Cornelius is an exception to the norm. He was baptized with the HS to show Peter and the others that the Gentiles could now be saved. There are no other examples of baptism with the HS in the NT. Some people received the Spirit, but that was not baptism w/the HS.
We receive the HS when we repent and are baptized. That's what Peter said, and I believe him.
But this is a topic for another thread, so I won't be discussing it here anymore.
One need simply to google "church of christ" with "stone campbell" or "restoration movement".
To spice it up a little, add in the word "cult" if you want to find out how the CoC's doctrinal positions (clearly hard core Arminianism) compares with other Christian denominations of the reformed (Luther and Calvin) tradition.
Rather than google them, why not check their practices against the New Testament church in the Bible? Is there something they do that is not Biblical? If so, please post it.
Church of Christ, Church of God, Church of Whatever . . . have NOTHING to do with Christ. There is no magic in Baptism or names or rituals or sacraments or communion or tongues or snake handling or . . . whatever. None of it matters because God knows our heart and what we do or do not do is measured against our heart. Get over this ancient superstitious nonsense and "love God and each other" as Christ commanded. Christ has saved us ALL. There is nothing we need do to be saved, but our Spirit must achieve harmony (resonance) with the Grace of Christ to be "worthy" to stand in the presence of God (Communion and ritual can help us to do this but are NOT magic and are not required).
Christ abides with us and His Holy Spirit is within our consciousness to lead us to what God has "written in our hearts." We need no men to baptize us or teach us, or lead us, or sanctify us, or "sacramentalize" us, or . . . whatever. There is no magic! God does NOT need us to enforce His Will on anyone but ourselves. We will reap what we sow based on our own success or failure in following Christ's commands to "love God and each other."If we "love God and each other" we are golden . . . and God will rejoice in our success in overcoming our animal nature with love. If we do not . . . there is no magic that can compensate for it. We will have to reap the consequences, but they will be no more than we sowed and no less.
ET and AN are bogus. We are eternal Spirits inhabiting a physical womb as embryo Spirits. We will be reborn as Spirit upon our physical death.
I have no knowledge of what ET or AN are. You will have to enlighten me.
With all due respect Mystic, either you are not a student of the Bible, or you reject that the Bible is the sole authority. Which is it? If you reject the Bible as your authority, then we have no common ground for debate or discussion.
I don't know much about universalism either except they believe everyone is going to heaven. It sounds like this is what you are, and my guess is you don't believe the Bible is the SOLE authority.
I have no knowledge of what ET or AN are. You will have to enlighten me. `
Eternal Torment (ET) and Annihilation (AN) are evil corruptions and distortions of Christ's Gospel based on the ancient ignorance and superstition in the OT. I recognize the Bible as God-inspired (but NOT Dictated). The OT was interpreted by ignorant primitive savages from a time when babies were routinely slaughtered or sacrificed to Moloch and entertainment was watching humans eaten by lions or killing each other as if it was football.
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With all due respect Mystic, either you are not a student of the Bible, or you reject that the Bible is the sole authority. Which is it? If you reject the Bible as your authority, then we have no common ground for debate or discussion. I don't know much about universalism either except they believe everyone is going to heaven. It sounds like this is what you are, and my guess is you don't believe the Bible is the SOLE authority.
Sola scriptura is a fallacious avoidance of reality and the primary way in which the bible came to be assembled. The retention and reverence for ancient ignorance in defiance of all modern knowledge acquired over 2000 + years is not just foolish . . . it is spiritual suicide. You do not know much about anything . . . if you are relying solely on our primitive ancestors' ignorant interpretations of scripture in defiance of all modern knowledge and understanding.
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You also sound very angry.
Katie
Not angry . . . very sad about the deliberate ignorance that is self-imposed on so many believers in Christ in the name of faith. It is why the true nature of God as revealed by Christ is corrupted by the ancient ignorance of the OT and the Gospel (Good News) message of love is lost.
If it preaches either ET or AN . . . it is a false Gospel. The Good News is that salvation is ALL about what Christ did, not what we do or do not do. Sanctification is all about what we do or do not do . . . and that is to "love God and each other."
Actually, we do teach and preach ET.
ET was all about "Phoning Home" and "Being Good".
Plus He healed with a touch.
ET is even in the bible. He climbed that Tree to see Jesus.
I suppose you're gonna tell me that this is false too, huh?
Not angry . . . very sad about the deliberate ignorance that is self-imposed on so many believers in Christ in the name of faith. It is why the true nature of God as revealed by Christ is corrupted by the ancient ignorance of the OT and the Gospel (Good News) message of love is lost.
Turn that frown upside down, young man!
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