Does God have to use magic? (church, believe, evolve, priest)
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Paul comforted the Thessalonians with these words concerning no only the resurrection but our meeting the Lord in the air:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (13) Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who
are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation." (14) For, if we
are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead
forth together with Him." (15) For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living,
who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose,
(16) for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the
Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first, (17) Thereupon
we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to
meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (18) So that, console one
another with these words."
We are not told exactly how God is going to put the human believers back together again who have long since turned to dust.
But since God is everywhere and "in Him we are moving and living and are" (Acts 17), He obviously knows everything about is and can put us back together.
But how will He cause us to defy gravity? Does He have to resort to magic? Not at all.
We are told that the means of accomplishing this is **spirit**:
Rom 8:11 Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who
rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit
making its home in you."
So it is the invisible, intangible power (spirit) of God which resides within us which will rouse us out of death.
That same spirit will allow us to defy gravity and meet the Lord in the air.
The views of the faithful would be welcome here. To quote the Elf in Tolkien re 'magic'.
'I do not know what you mean by that...and you seem to use the same words to describe the deceits of the enemy.'
Perhaps that is what is bothering Eusebius, that the 'Enemy' can also use magic.
Call it the the supernatural, the divine or the 'Spirit' or whatever.
Do the faithful consider the the turning of water into wine, multiplying bread and fish and stars trundling along and parking over Herod's palace while the travellers were inside requires a splash of the supernatural.
These things do not occur in nature. Thus, if we need an unseaworthy Ark to survive, limited provender to suffice, mountains to shoot up at a preternatural speed and a few basic 'kinds' of animals to evolve like the clappers so as to populate the earth with a million species which couldn't be crammed on the Ark (because that is where this query came from) would the believers consider that an act of supernatural magic had to be carried out and God was the only one who could have done it?
And if we scoffers want to call that 'waving the magic wand' apart from the deprecating tone, is that wrong in the basic point - that a supernatural miracle had to be performed?
From mostly people spirit and souls could rise and float to heaven or be carried by the chariot of fire to heaven , or they could walk up Jacobs latter as to older way to heaven .... Then there were miracle of people floating as Jesus was walking of water and even Elijah walked of water , and there was the Ascension of Jesus who floated up to heaven to the amazement of people ... Then there was a miracle of a priest who was called the floating priest who would stare at the virgin in their church that his body begins to float in the church and there were many times that this miracle happened that he got himself in trouble with His leaders ........Even the Israelites who walked across the red sea which sounds like floating people
The views of the faithful would be welcome here. To quote the Elf in Tolkien re 'magic'.
'I do not know what you mean by that...and you seem to use the same words to describe the deceits of the enemy.'
Perhaps that is what is bothering Eusebius, that the 'Enemy' can also use magic.
Call it the the supernatural, the divine or the 'Spirit' or whatever.
Do the faithful consider the the turning of water into wine, multiplying bread and fish and stars trundling along and parking over Herod's palace while the travellers were inside requires a splash of the supernatural.
These things do not occur in nature. Thus, if we need an unseaworthy Ark to survive, limited provender to suffice, mountains to shoot up at a preternatural speed and a few basic 'kinds' of animals to evolve like the clappers so as to populate the earth with a million species which couldn't be crammed on the Ark (because that is where this query came from) would the believers consider that an act of supernatural magic had to be carried out and God was the only one who could have done it?
And if we scoffers want to call that 'waving the magic wand' apart from the deprecating tone, is that wrong in the basic point - that a supernatural miracle had to be performed?
AREQUIPA, how does magic raise a person from the dead. Lazarus was dead so long he stunk. Yet Jesus raised him from the dead. That's not magic. Magic can't put one's memories back in their brain when their brain has been dead over three days. Lazarus came back from the dead at Jesus' command and was a normal person. That's not magic. Magic can't do that. That is God's spirit.
Likewise Jesus was dead three days: brain dead, heart dead, dead dead dead. God didn't use magic to raise Him from the dead. It was by His spirit.
Acts 1:6-11 - So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." 9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
Acts 1:6-11 - So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." 9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."
God is able to override any of the "physical laws" that He created. Virgin births, axeheads that float to the surface, parting of seas, etc... no problem for God.
I just re-read my response with the thread title - I can see how it can be taken as you did.
Arthur C. Clarke famously said that "any sufficiently alien technology would be indistinguishable from magic." I suppose one could paraphrase that as "any exercise of God's power that suspends the laws of nature would be indistinguishable from magic." I'm really not following the point being made here. "Magic" implies deception -- something appears to be true but isn't. God obviously isn't "performing magic" - he is sovereign over the universe and can suspend the laws of nature as it suits his purposes. Arthur C. Clarke's point is relevant because God's suspension of the laws of nature may appear to us as magic. "Jesus can't have walked on water or raised the dead because that is physically impossible. It must have been magic and those who observed it must have been duped." No, it was indistinguishable from magic because the laws that govern what is physically possible were suspended by one who is not subject to them and who has the power to suspend them.
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