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It is NOT an attack on the Gospel. The Gospel of salvation is the Good News that Christ has saved us, period. It wouldn't be good news if it wasn't true! You are creating some magical status based on what you believe ABOUT Christ . . . that you refuse to explain. I have asked you to explain what the source of this special condition is that so powerfully affects your entire existence and fate. How does it separate you from others and why? If someone does not believe as you do but lives the exact same life that you do . . . why or how would their fate be different from yours? What is it that makes the difference and why?
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Originally Posted by Mike555
You are attacking the gospel of salvation. You are telling everyone that there is no need to believe on Christ in order to receive eternal life. You are telling everyone that everyone is already saved which is a denial of what the Bible plainly teaches.
No I am NOT, Mike. I just have a more realistic and pragmatic understanding of what "believe ON" means. Just answer my questions and explain what you believe this saving status is that you somehow attain that someone who lives exactly as you do would not have without it.
It's not possible for those who truly "believe him" to have faith without good works.
Some people see themselves as being special, when they attempt to "Lord it, over others!"
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Originally Posted by garya123
Exactly.
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Originally Posted by pastorALly
What constitutes good works?
Everything done in "love of God and each other." It can ONLY be good when done in agape love.
No I am NOT, Mike. I just have a more realistic and pragmatic understanding of what "believe ON" means. Just answer my questions and explain what you believe this saving status is that you somehow attain that someone who lives exactly as you do would not have without it.
No, you do not have a better understanding of the issue. You are attacking the gospel of salvation by stating that everyone is already eternally saved and denying the necessity of trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross in order to have eternal life. It is clearly revealed in the Scriptures that those who do not believe on Christ do not have eternal life, but remain under condemnation and are spiritually separated from God.
No I am NOT, Mike. I just have a more realistic and pragmatic understanding of what "believe ON" means. Just answer my questions and explain what you believe this saving status is that you somehow attain that someone who lives exactly as you do would not have without it.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
No, you do not have a better understanding of the issue. You are attacking the gospel of salvation by stating that everyone is already eternally saved and denying the necessity of trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross in order to have eternal life. It is clearly revealed in the Scriptures that those who do not believe on Christ do not have eternal life, but remain under condemnation and are spiritually separated from God.
I am NOT denying salvation. I am questioning what YOU think WE need to do about it. I know WE do not need to do anything about it because that was Christ's job. We DO need to "believe ON" Christ and that is something very different from your easy believism. THAT is what I am trying to get you to see and articulate. But you are resisting. Just answer my questions . . . don't refer to me to your sermon of platitudes that reveal no concrete examples of what we must do and how we somehow attain this magical status you rely on. I have been very explicit about how I see our role in "believing ON" Christ . . . "love of God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. You have NOT!
I am NOT denying salvation. I am questioning what YOU think WE need to do about it. I know WE do not need to do anything about it because that was Christ's job. We DO need to "believe ON" Christ and that is something very different from your easy believism. THAT is what I am trying to get you to see and articulate. But you are resisting. Just answer my questions . . . don't refer to me to your sermon of platitudes that reveal no concrete examples of what we must do and how we somehow attain this magical status you rely on. I have been very explicit about how I see our role in "believing ON" Christ . . . "love of God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. You have NOT!
You are by your own admission a Universalist (of the variety that believes that everyone is already eternally saved and does not have to have personal faith in Christ in order to be eternally saved.) This is a denial of what the Bible teaches. You falsely teach that it is not necessary to believe on Christ in order to have eternal life, and instead relate believing on Christ strictly to the issue of experiential sanctification. And so you speak disparagingly of what you call 'easy believism' within the context of experiential sanctification instead of within the context of the issue of eternal life.
I referred you to my old thread where your question concerning the believer's status is already answered. Whether you choose to go there or not is your choice.
Furthermore, the purpose of this thread is to present the doctrine of salvation in the studies I provided in the OP which I of course am in complete agreement with. Therefore, refer to them.
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-17-2014 at 03:30 PM..
I am NOT denying salvation. I am questioning what YOU think WE need to do about it. I know WE do not need to do anything about it because that was Christ's job. We DO need to "believe ON" Christ and that is something very different from your easy believism. THAT is what I am trying to get you to see and articulate. But you are resisting. Just answer my questions . . . don't refer to me to your sermon of platitudes that reveal no concrete examples of what we must do and how we somehow attain this magical status you rely on. I have been very explicit about how I see our role in "believing ON" Christ . . . "love of God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. You have NOT!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
You are by your own admission a Universalist (of the variety that believes that everyone is already eternally saved and does not have to have personal faith in Christ in order to be eternally saved.) This is a denial of what the Bible teaches. You falsely teach that it is not necessary to believe on Christ in order to have eternal life, and instead relate believing on Christ strictly to the issue of experiential sanctification. And so you speak disparagingly of what you call 'easy believism' in the context of experiential sanctification instead of in the context of the issue of eternal life.
No, Mike . . . I am a CHRISTIAN Universalist . . . something you do not seem to grasp. I just define "believe ON" Christ very differently. I trust Christ has saved us, period. I do not see that I have any role in that part of things. I DO see my role in "believing ON" Christ as I have repeatedly said. You STILL have not articulated how YOU reach the magical status of "believing ON" Christ in all your sermons and platitudes you keep referring me to. I am asking for a short, sweet and simple explanation of how you have acquired this magical status you so fervently "believe IN" and rely on. It can't be that hard, Mike. Pare it down and state it clearly for us to understand how someone who would live exactly as YOU do . . . could NOT be saved without it. What is the magic, Mike?
No, Mike . . . I am a CHRISTIAN Universalist . . . something you do not seem to grasp. I just define "believe ON" Christ very differently. I trust Christ has saved us, period. I do not see that I have any role in that part of things. I DO see my role in "believing ON" Christ as I have repeatedly said. You STILL have not articulated how YOU reach the magical status of "believing ON" Christ in all your sermons and platitudes you keep referring me to. I am asking for a short, sweet and simple explanation of how you have acquired this magical status you so fervently "believe IN" and rely on. It can't be that hard, Mike. Pare it down and state it clearly for us to understand how someone who would live exactly as YOU do . . . could NOT be saved without it. What is the magic, Mike?
And all you have to do to receive these 40 things is to believe that Jesus died for our sins, meaning that He paid the price, the penalty for our sins, and rose again, with the result that you trust in His finished work on the Cross. Whenever a person trusts in Christ he is born again at that very moment.
And again, it has nothing to do with 'magic.'
Also again, you are by your own admission a Universalist (of the variety that believes that everyone is already eternally saved and does not have to have personal faith in Christ in order to be eternally saved.) This is a denial of what the Bible teaches. You falsely teach that it is not necessary to believe on Christ in order to have eternal life, and instead relate believing on Christ strictly to the issue of experiential sanctification. And so you speak disparagingly of what you call 'easy believism' within the context of experiential sanctification instead of within the context of the issue of eternal life.
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-17-2014 at 04:41 PM..
No, Mike . . . I am a CHRISTIAN Universalist . . . something you do not seem to grasp. I just define "believe ON" Christ very differently. I trust Christ has saved us, period. I do not see that I have any role in that part of things. I DO see my role in "believing ON" Christ as I have repeatedly said. You STILL have not articulated how YOU reach the magical status of "believing ON" Christ in all your sermons and platitudes you keep referring me to. I am asking for a short, sweet and simple explanation of how you have acquired this magical status you so fervently "believe IN" and rely on. It can't be that hard, Mike. Pare it down and state it clearly for us to understand how someone who would live exactly as YOU do . . . could NOT be saved without it. What is the magic, Mike?
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Originally Posted by Mike555
You define it wrongly. I told you what to do in posts # 84 and 86 concerning the 'status' of the believer. Do it or don't and don't bother continuing to ask me. And again, it has nothing to do with 'magic.'
Those platitudes have everything to do with magic, Mike. Why do you refuse to pare things down and explain them in simple terms? Explain what is different about someone who lives EXACTLY as you do but does not have the "status." Why would you be saved and he would not under an identical life and circumstances. Please answer this and explain yourself.
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Also again, you are by your own admission a Universalist (of the variety that believes that everyone is already eternally saved and does not have to have personal faith in Christ in order to be eternally saved.)
Why do you insist on misrepresenting me? I differ only in what YOU consider "believing ON" Christ. I am a Christian universalist.
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This is a denial of what the Bible teaches.
That may categorize me as NOT a Biblean . . . but it does NOT affect my Christianity.
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You falsely teach that it is not necessary to believe on Christ in order to have eternal life, and instead relate believing on Christ strictly to the issue of experiential sanctification.
You just define "believe ON" as if it means "believe IN." I do not. I know exactly what "believe ON" (pisteuo eis) actually means . . . and it is how you can identify someone who actually "believes ON" Christ.
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And so you speak disparagingly of what you call 'easy believism' within the context of experiential sanctification instead of within the context of the issue of eternal life.
I do not disparage it. I recognize it as a distraction and a stumbling block to actually "believing ON" Christ. It focuses people on the magic and ritual of ancient superstitions and distracts them from actually trying to "love God and each other" daily and repent when they don't. You do not believe in repentance. How does THAT work? Just answer the question and simplify how you acquire this magical status and how and why it makes you different from someone who lives EXACTLY as you do . . . but doesn't have it.
Those platitudes have everything to do with magic, Mike. Why do you refuse to pare things down and explain them in simple terms? Explain what is different about someone who lives EXACTLY as you do but does not have the "status." Why would you be saved and he would not under an identical life and circumstances. Please answer this and explain yourself.
Why do you insist on misrepresenting me? I differ only in what YOU consider "believing ON" Christ. I am a Christian universalist. That may categorize me as NOT a Biblean . . . but it does NOT affect my Christianity. You just define "believe ON" as if it means "believe IN." I do not. I know exactly what "believe ON" (pisteuo eis) actually means . . . and it is how you can identify someone who actually "believes ON" Christ. I do not disparage it. I recognize it as a distraction and a stumbling block to actually "believing ON" Christ. It focuses people on the magic and ritual of ancient superstitions and distracts them from actually trying to "love God and each other" daily and repent when they don't. You do not believe in repentance. How does THAT work? Just answer the question and simplify how you acquire this magical status and how and why it makes you different from someone who lives EXACTLY as you do . . . but doesn't have it.
You have not been misrepresented. You have your own gospel. A false gospel. You claim that everyone is already eternally saved. This is contrary to what Jesus said and to what the apostles said.
Repentence related to salvation is simply a change of mind about Christ. A person was an unbeliever but then heard the gospel and received Christ as Savior. He repented.
And again, you are by your own admission a Universalist (of the variety that believes that everyone is already eternally saved and does not have to have personal faith in Christ in order to be eternally saved.) This is a denial of what the Bible teaches. You falsely teach that it is not necessary to believe on Christ in order to have eternal life, and instead relate believing on Christ strictly to the issue of experiential sanctification. And so you speak disparagingly of what you call 'easy believism' within the context of experiential sanctification instead of within the context of the issue of eternal life.
Now refer back to post #88 because I modified it.
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