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Actually, it wasn't meant entirely to be condescending. I believe a have a few years in this on you.
But not born is my point. So you can spare me the furtherance of your condescending off base teaching that is so far off the mark it isn't worth the read.
Sorry but, <groan>
I understand. So it is a cult thinking we are all up against here.
I want Christian doctrine on my bookshelves, not what you espouse. Sorry. I won't engage you again.
Salvation by grace through faith and not by works is not a cult teaching. It is what the Word of God teaches. It is what Paul taught (Ephesians 2:8-9) and what Peter and the other apostles believed as well as stated by Peter in Acts 15:11, and which James also believed. If James did not agree that salvation was by grace through faith then he had the perfect opportunity to say so since he was present at the counsel at Jerusalem.
A person is born again when he believes the gospel message concerning Christ Jesus and therefore trusts in Christ for eternal life. It has nothing to do with works.
I agree implicitly. What Mike fails to realize is the very process of believing on Jesus alone for salvation is an "act" (good work) in and of itself. So faith + good works is an inescapable formula even for the most die-hard "salvation by faith alone" apostles.
As Jesus Himself said, and which I have repeatedly stated on other threads is that Jesus said that there was one work of God and that was to believe on Him, in contrast with the works which the crowd to whom He spoke believed they needed to do in order to be saved. This is covered in John 6:27-29. The singular 'work' of believing on Christ is non-meritorious in contrast with any meritorious work man can do.
Salvation is by grace though faith AND NOT BY WORKS, so that no man can boast, as stated in Ephesians 2:8-9. And which Jesus made clear in John 6:27-29.
The purpose of this thread was stated in the original post. Anyone who is interested in learning about the doctrine of salvation can avail themselves of the studies which were provided. Anyone who is not interested need not bother.
I do not intend to drag this thread out into yet another overly long debate with the usual people who have no intention of being objective and who refuse to listen. As far as I am concerned, the information has been provided. If you don't want it, it is your loss.
Water baptism is not the same thing as the baptism of the Holy Spirit which occurs at the moment of faith in Christ with some exceptions at the beginning of the church age, for instance, the Samaritans in Acts chapter 8. They had already been saved, and had been water baptized, but did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit until Peter arrived to lay hands on them. The baptism of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with regeneration or being born again. It is a ministry of the Holy Spirit by which the church age believer is placed into union with Christ. The Samaritans had to wait for Peter and John to arrive in Samaria to lay hands on them before they were ushered into the church age. The probable reason for that was that the Jews otherwise would not have believed that the Samaritans were part of the Church. The Book of Acts covers a period of about the first 35 years or so of the church age which was a transitional period.
Now notice. The Gentiles received the Holy Spirit before being water baptized. But the Samaritans had to wait until Peter and John arrived to lay hands on them before receiving the Holy Spirit even though they had been saved and had been baptized in water. This has to do with the transitional period at the beginning of the church age.
Works are a part of the believer's spiritual life. They are not a requirement for receiving the free gift of eternal life.
Now if you disagree with what I have told you, then you disagree. And you can either make an effort to find out what the provided studies have to say about the issue of salvation, or not.
Why are you getting so defensive?
I know we don't see eye to eye. No amount of "saved by grace through faith" scriptures are going to help me. I'm way passed that scripture. I was baptized just like the scriptures said. I received the Holy Ghost just like the scriptures said. I repent daily just like we are supposed to do. I do "works" because I believe in Jesus and his teachings. We are to walk just as Jesus walked. Live as He lived. I am not working for my salvation, I work because He did. I don't cling to "grace and faith" and hope to make it, I take all the scriptures and apply them.
Everyone's "salvation" experience is different. Some get baptized by water first then receive the HG. Some receive the HG then get baptized. Some get baptized and receive the HG as they come up out of the water. The scriptures I shared with you are EXACTLY just that. Different experiences but the same results! Which is why you can't address the other scripture I gave:
Quote:
• Acts 19:2 “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” he asked them. “No,” they replied, “we haven’t even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 “Then what baptism did you experience?” he asked. And they replied, “The baptism of John.” 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism called for repentance from sin. But John himself told the people to believe in the one who would come later, meaning Jesus.” 5 As soon as they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 Then when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in other tongues and prophesied.
As you see, they believed! Believing is a verb. You can't receive salvation through a verb. You receive salvation through ACTION! For every action, there's a reaction! You see a ball. You believe it's a ball. You believe it's going to move. But how? You have to apply action to make it move.
Let me leave you with this...
Ep 2:20Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. 21 We are carefully joined together in him, becoming a holy temple for the Lord.
If the we are His house built upon the apostles foundation. Why aren't [we] doing as the apostles did? If the apostles spoke in tongues, why aren't [we]? If the apostles laid hands on people to receive the Holy Ghost, why aren't [we]? If the apostles cast out demons, why aren't [we]? If the apostles laid hands on the sick and prayed in Jesus' Name and they recovered, why aren't [we]? If they performed miracles, signs and wonders through Jesus' Name, why aren't [we]?
If the apostles did it... We all should. How else are we to be joined together in Him if we aren't united in our methods, "works" and teachings?
Demons tremble and have to flee when you call on the name of Jesus. When you are filled with His Spirit, the demons know who you are! Look at this...
Acts 19:13-16A group of Jews was traveling from town to town casting out evil spirits. They tried to use the name of the Lord Jesus in their incantation, saying, “I command you in the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, to come out!” 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a leading priest, were doing this. 15 But one time when they tried it, the evil spirit replied, “I know Jesus, and I know Paul, but who are you?” 16 Then the man with the evil spirit leaped on them, overpowered them, and attacked them with such violence that they fled from the house, naked and battered.
BAHAHAHAHA!!! Is that not funny?! These Jews were "believers" in the teachings. But they weren't "appliers". They must not have put ACTION to their verb. The demon knew who Jesus was. The demon knew who Paul was. Why? Because Paul was filled with the Spirit. But the demon said, WHO ARE YOU??? These Jew's must not have been filled with the Spirit or the demon would have known who he was. Which is why they couldn't cast the demon out of the man. Oh man, this scripture is rather humorous if you really understand the meaning behind it.
I know we don't see eye to eye. No amount of "saved by grace through faith" scriptures are going to help me. I'm way passed that scripture. I was baptized just like the scriptures said. I received the Holy Ghost just like the scriptures said. I repent daily just like we are supposed to do. I do "works" because I believe in Jesus and his teachings. We are to walk just as Jesus walked. Live as He lived. I am not working for my salvation, I work because He did. I don't cling to "grace and faith" and hope to make it, I take all the scriptures and apply them.
Everyone's "salvation" experience is different. Some get baptized by water first then receive the HG. Some receive the HG then get baptized. Some get baptized and receive the HG as they come up out of the water. The scriptures I shared with you are EXACTLY just that. Different experiences but the same results! Which is why you can't address the other scripture I gave:
As you see, they believed! Believing is a verb. You can't receive salvation through a verb. You receive salvation through ACTION! For every action, there's a reaction! You see a ball. You believe it's a ball. You believe it's going to move. But how? You have to apply action to make it move.
Let me leave you with this...
Ep 2:20Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. 21 We are carefully joined together in him, becoming a holy temple for the Lord.
If the we are His house built upon the apostles foundation. Why aren't [we] doing as the apostles did? If the apostles spoke in tongues, why aren't [we]? If the apostles laid hands on people to receive the Holy Ghost, why aren't [we]? If the apostles cast out demons, why aren't [we]? If the apostles laid hands on the sick and prayed in Jesus' Name and they recovered, why aren't [we]? If they performed miracles, signs and wonders through Jesus' Name, why aren't [we]?
If the apostles did it... We all should. How else are we to be joined together in Him if we aren't united in our methods, "works" and teachings?
Demons tremble and have to flee when you call on the name of Jesus. When you are filled with His Spirit, the demons know who you are! Look at this...
Acts 19:13-16A group of Jews was traveling from town to town casting out evil spirits. They tried to use the name of the Lord Jesus in their incantation, saying, “I command you in the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, to come out!” 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a leading priest, were doing this. 15 But one time when they tried it, the evil spirit replied, “I know Jesus, and I know Paul, but who are you?” 16 Then the man with the evil spirit leaped on them, overpowered them, and attacked them with such violence that they fled from the house, naked and battered.
BAHAHAHAHA!!! Is that not funny?! These Jews were "believers" in the teachings. But they weren't "appliers". They must not have put ACTION to their verb. The demon knew who Jesus was. The demon knew who Paul was. Why? Because Paul was filled with the Spirit. But the demon said, WHO ARE YOU??? These Jew's must not have been filled with the Spirit or the demon would have known who he was. Which is why they couldn't cast the demon out of the man. Oh man, this scripture is rather humorous if you really understand the meaning behind it.
You do not and cannot receive the free gift of eternal life by working for it. The believer should produce good works but they have nothing to do with receiving eternal life.
This thread has served its purpose with the posting of the studies on salvation which explain the issue. Most of the people on this forum will not even bother seeing what they have to say. But it is there for those who will.
The purpose of this thread was stated in the original post. Anyone who is interested in learning about the doctrine of salvation can avail themselves of the studies which were provided. Anyone who is not interested need not bother.
I do not intend to drag this thread out into yet another overly long debate with the usual people who have no intention of being objective and who refuse to listen. As far as I am concerned, the information has been provided. If you don't want it, it is your loss.
So, you do not hold yourself to be in this category of those who refuse to listen? Most only hear their own voice, or that of their mentors?
"For this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, listen to him."
You do not and cannot receive the free gift of eternal life by working for it. The believer should produce good works but they have nothing to do with receiving eternal life.
This thread has served its purpose with the posting of the studies on salvation which explain the issue. Most of the people on this forum will not even bother seeing what they have to say. But it is there for those who will.
I have looked into what you post! I even tried learning more about the way you believe but you never replied to ANY of my questions. So why are you asking people to look at what you post if you're not willing to answer the questions? If you don't want people to make a conversation about it, maybe you should start a blog instead.
You are still ignoring the undeniable evidence that I've laid out. You may assume we don't have to make any effort whatsoever. But I've shown you time and time again that you are contradicting the Bible. To know Him we have to seek Him and read His Word. That requires effort and action on our part! Did we learn about Him because we said, "I believe on Him and accept Him as my Lord and Savior" and BAM we are hit with all the knowledge of God and we know everything the Bible says? NO. We. put. ourselves. into. action.
Lastly, how can you receive a free gift if you don't apply action to "receive" it? "Receive" is an action to a verb. Which as I stated in my last post... Believing is a verb not an action.
John 17
He gives eternal life
I have passed on to them the message you gave me. They accepted it andknow...
He GIVES - which means He applied an action in order to "give" the eternal life.
He PASSED on to them - another action he applied to "pass" it to them.
They ACCEPTED it - another action
AND KNOW - not only did they accept it (an action) but they ALSO know (verb) ACTION TO A VERB - ACTION (accepted) to a VERB (know)
So... when you believe (verb) He gives (action) and you receive (action). If HE has to apply action, we should too!
Ironically . . . in a strange way having faith that salvation comes from Christ is true. But not for the reasons you believe, Mike. It has NOTHING to do with what we do or do not do, believe or do not believe. In fact we have absolutely NOTHING to do with our salvation, period. Christ accomplished it for us. He is our "designated hitter." All the "precepts and doctrines of men" that support the existence and perpetuation of the churches are man-made additions to Christ's simple Gospel of love. HE never said believe all these things ABOUT me. HE said follow me. Love God and each other as I have loved you. Do the things I have done. It had nothing to do with what to believe ABOUT Him. It had to do with "believing ON" Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton
As long as one believes in and recognizes Christ alone as their Savior, one's belief that believers in Christ alone (or that all people, by virtue of their existence) - will be saved, may not influence who is ultimately 'saved' or 'not saved'. My concern is that the proliferation of this belief could ultimately lead some to ignore or reject even the foundational belief and trust in Christ (since the UR message so often seems to infer that one's creation and existence alone are sufficient).
Confusing us Christian Universal Reconciliation believers with the more common Unitarian Universalist believers is widespread . . . but wrong. The difference is not dependent upon what you believe ABOUT Christ (which produces so much discord and divisiveness among Christians). It is dependent upon whether or not you FOLLOW Christ and what He instructed His disciples to do . . . "love God and each other" daily and repent when you don't. We have faith that Christ saved us all from eternal separation from God. That is the Good News. But we don't want to waste it. We want to build upon that foundation built by Christ as we were instructed to do.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 02-15-2014 at 06:57 PM..
James did NOT agree with Paul on this issue. He was most definitely at odds with him.
James would NEVER have said "So you see, faith without good works is a dead faith" if he felt that faith alone could save us. He made good works an integral part of saving faith, as a dead faith (faith alone) cannot possibly save you.
This malarkey of Paul and James actually being in agreement is just that: malarkey, to try to reconcile two irreconcilable opposing viewpoints.
James did NOT agree with Paul on this issue. He was most definitely at odds with him.
James would NEVER have said "So you see, faith without good works is a dead faith" if he felt that faith alone could save us. He made good works an integral part of saving faith, as a dead faith (faith alone) cannot possibly save you.
This malarkey of Paul and James actually being in agreement is just that: malarkey, to try to reconcile two irreconcilable opposing viewpoints.
James did indeed agree with Paul and with Peter that salvation is by grace. James was at the council at Jerusalem along with Paul and Peter.
At that council were some men who had come from Judea who were teaching that in order to be saved you had to be circumcised according to the custom of Moses (Acts 15:1). Peter refuted that claim and stated that 'We' believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way that they also are [Jew and Gentile are saved by grace]. (Acts 15:11). Then Paul and Barnabas began relating the signs and wonders that God had done through them among the Gentiles (Acts 15:12). Then James began to speak and told how Peter had related how God first concerned himself About taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. James was in agreement with Peter and with Paul that salvation is by grace. And had he not been in agreement he would have said so instead of saying that it was his judgment that the Gentiles who were turning to God not be troubled with the claims of the Judaizers.
In the Book of James, James was not referring to eternal salvation. He was referring to matters of the believer's spiritual production in time as a believer. He was talking about being a doer of the word and not just a hearer. The believer is eternally saved regardless of whether he has a productive spiritual life. James was saying that a 'dead' faith - a faith which was not put into practice could not save or deliver the eternally saved believer from a useless nonproductive spiritual life. It has nothing to do with the believer not being eternally saved.
Paul taught that works are not a requirement for eternal salvation.
James taught that works are part of having a productive spiritual life, as did Paul in Ephesians 2:10.
A contradiction can only exist when two opposing things are said concerning one particular issue. James in his epistle was speaking of the believer having spiritual dynamics in his life as a believer. But when Paul said that works are not a requirement for salvation in Eph. 2:8-9 he was referring to eternal life. And then AFTER THAT he spoke of the fact that we are created for good works in verse 10.
This should not be difficult to understand, and yet so many DON'T understand it and don't even try to understand it.
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