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You and I have two completely different views when it comes to salvation. Christ is our Savior! But we have to justify it with our actions. We can't say, "Ok, thanks for that. I'll sit back and do nothing because I know you already did it all on Calvary's cross." No, I'm sorry, that's not how it works. In the Old Testament they didn't "do nothing" to atone for their sins. It was a process. If they were to sacrifice the first bull, they had to make sure it was clean before God. I'm sure that took months and months of work to keep that bull pure until it was time for them to sacrifice it. This preparation applied to everything they sacrificed. Jesus came and changed our plan of salvation but He didn't take the "action" out of it. If there is no action on our part then His sacrifice was all for nothing.
I'm not ashamed and I don't try to hide it... I'm a "doer" when it comes to my walk with God.
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
I know for a fact that I don't have fundamental issues to resolve. There are countless records of "actions" listed in the NT scriptures. The "actions" don't stop when someone is born again either. The "actions" only multiply.
You have some fundamental issues to resolve here, Juni. If we are to save ourselves by our actions . . . how is Christ our Savior? Are WE our own saviors or is Christ our Savior?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses
sigh.
Well...Christ opened the doorway to salvation...but it is still up to us to "pick up the cross and follow"
It's not exclusively Christ nor Us that makes it happen. It's a perfect partnership. But you knew that already!
Christ is NOT the DOOR to salvation . . . He IS the Savior! We gain the cover for our imperfections before God of His perfection by following His instructions to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. Our following does not save us . . . it sanctifies and justifies us.
Our following does not save us . . . it sanctifies and justifies us.
I have a question... This isn't meant as controversial, I'm just curious and would like your opinion. If following Jesus only sanctifies and justifies us, then what does it do to us if we don't follow Him? The reason I ask is, I agree with your previous statement but... I see "following Jesus" as part of being saved. When we are born again we follow Him. So being saved sanctifies and justifies us. Do you see what I mean? Since it has to be one or the other, to follow Him or not to follow Him, that means it would equal saved or not saved (IMHO).
When Jesus said, "take up your cross and follow me" I see that as a command. The Bible also states we should live as He lived. How can we live like Him unless we follow Him? By doing so we are obeying the commands given to us. By not following Him He will say He does not know us. Am I making sense? Clear as mud?
So I'd just like to get your opinion, from your viewpoint, what happens to those who don't follow Him.
I have a question... This isn't meant as controversial, I'm just curious and would like your opinion. If following Jesus only sanctifies and justifies us, then what does it do to us if we don't follow Him? The reason I ask is, I agree with your previous statement but... I see "following Jesus" as part of being saved. When we are born again we follow Him. So being saved sanctifies and justifies us. Do you see what I mean? Since it has to be one or the other, to follow Him or not to follow Him, that means it would equal saved or not saved (IMHO).
When Jesus said, "take up your cross and follow me" I see that as a command. The Bible also states we should live as He lived. How can we live like Him unless we follow Him? By doing so we are obeying the commands given to us. By not following Him He will say He does not know us. Am I making sense? Clear as mud?
So I'd just like to get your opinion, from your viewpoint, what happens to those who don't follow Him.
I do understand, Juni. We are all saved from eternal separation from God. However, when we follow Christ's instructions to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't . . . we gain the cover for our imperfections before God of Christ's perfect love for us all. His grace and our repentance negates those imperfections before God. Those who do NOT follow Christ's instructions will reap what they have sowed . . . but never more than they sowed. They will stand in the glare of God's consuming fire of pure love and their imperfections will be refined out as dross. It will NOT be pleasant and it will take as long as it takes . . . but it will be entirely self-imposed remorse, regret, self-condemnation and recrimination . . . the biblical "weeping ang gnashing of teeth."
Christ is NOT the DOOR to salvation . . . He IS the Savior! We gain the cover for our imperfections before God of His perfection by following His instructions to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. Our following does not save us . . . it sanctifies and justifies us.
Dude...you yourself always talk about how Christ "opened the way" for our species. I was merely talking about the same thing you always mention.
I never said CHRIST WAS THE DOOR....I said "he opened the door"
Nor did I say he was not the Savior.
What I said was: "Christ opened the doorway to salvation...but it is still up to us to "pick up the cross and follow"
I will reprint the scripture that disproves the idea that "our following does not save us" right from Jesus' mouth:
Christ makes it PERFECTLY clear when he says in Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
You cannot enter the Kingdom unless you DO the WILL of the FATHER.
There is no taking some other scripture from Paul that seems to imply otherwise. Because if that is the case...those scriptures by Paul that contradict Christ get thrown out.
If you don't agree with Matthew 7:21 then you do not agree with Christ.
I have a question... This isn't meant as controversial, I'm just curious and would like your opinion. If following Jesus only sanctifies and justifies us, then what does it do to us if we don't follow Him? The reason I ask is, I agree with your previous statement but... I see "following Jesus" as part of being saved. When we are born again we follow Him. So being saved sanctifies and justifies us. Do you see what I mean? Since it has to be one or the other, to follow Him or not to follow Him, that means it would equal saved or not saved (IMHO).
When Jesus said, "take up your cross and follow me" I see that as a command. The Bible also states we should live as He lived. How can we live like Him unless we follow Him? By doing so we are obeying the commands given to us. By not following Him He will say He does not know us. Am I making sense? Clear as mud?
So I'd just like to get your opinion, from your viewpoint, what happens to those who don't follow Him.
Sorry to chime in...but I am one of those (among many) who believe that Sanctification and Salvation are the same thing. A lot has been written about it...there's no shortage of information on the subject.
I do understand, Juni. We are all saved from eternal separation from God. However, when we follow Christ's instructions to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't . . . we gain the cover for our imperfections before God of Christ's perfect love for us all. His grace and our repentance negates those imperfections before God. Those who do NOT follow Christ's instructions will reap what they have sowed . . . but never more than they sowed. They will stand in the glare of God's consuming fire of pure love and their imperfections will be refined out as dross. It will NOT be pleasant and it will take as long as it takes . . . but it will be entirely self-imposed remorse, regret, self-condemnation and recrimination . . . the biblical "weeping ang gnashing of teeth."
You mean from this Scripture (MATTHEW 13:42)? "They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Isn't that part talking about those who are condemned?
Dude...you yourself always talk about how Christ "opened the way" for our species. I was merely talking about the same thing you always mention.
I never said CHRIST WAS THE DOOR....I said "he opened the door"
Nor did I say he was not the Savior.
What I said was: "Christ opened the doorway to salvation...but it is still up to us to "pick up the cross and follow"
I will reprint the scripture that disproves the idea that "our following does not save us" right from Jesus' mouth:
Christ makes it PERFECTLY clear when he says in Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
You cannot enter the Kingdom unless you DO the WILL of the FATHER.
There is no taking some other scripture from Paul that seems to imply otherwise. Because if that is the case...those scriptures by Paul that contradict Christ get thrown out.
If you don't agree with Matthew 7:21 then you do not agree with Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses
Sorry to chime in...but I am one of those (among many) who believe that Sanctification and Salvation are the same thing. A lot has been written about it...there's no shortage of information on the subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses
You mean from this Scripture (MATTHEW 13:42)? "They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Isn't that part talking about those who are condemned?
Perhaps I can dispel your concerns by pointing out something that I do not think is widely believed. We are NOT ALL one thing or the other. We are NOT even the SAME physical person over time. We are the accumulation of our daily selves. Who we were yesterday is different from who we are today or who will be tomorrow or who we were ten years ago. DO you recognize the truth of this? Our life is a cumulative composite of the good, the bad, and the neutral. There are no ALL wicked people to be condemned. That is a silly idea.
Those parts of our lives that are wicked will not survive our death because they will be refined out as dross in the consuming fire of God's pure love. We (whatever is left) will be "saved as by fire." In figurative language . . . the parts of our cosmic symphony that we played during life that are "off-key" (non-love, wicked, etc.) will be removed from our life symphony. That process will not be pleasant . . . but it will end with only the "good" parts remaining.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 03-20-2014 at 10:02 PM..
Sorry to chime in...but I am one of those (among many) who believe that Sanctification and Salvation are the same thing. A lot has been written about it...there's no shortage of information on the subject.
I agree. That's why I said "being saved sanctifies and justifies us". All these 3 are 1. Just like the Godhead
Perhaps I can dispel your concerns by pointing out something that I do not think is widely believed. We are NOT ALL one thing or the other. We are NOT even the SAME physical person over time. We are the accumulation of our daily selves. Who we were yesterday is different from who we are today or who we were ten years ago. DO you recognize the truth of this? Our life is a cumulative composite of the good, the bad, and the neutral. There are no ALL wicked people to be condemned. That is a silly idea.
Those parts of our lives that are wicked will not survive our death because they will be refined out as dross in the consuming fire of God's pure love. We (whatever is left) will be "saved as by fire." In figurative language . . . the parts of our cosmic symphony that we played during life that are "off-key" (non-love, wicked, etc.) will be removed from our life symphony. That process will not be pleasant . . . but it will end with only the "good" parts remaining.
I don't disagree with you Mystic, that this is possibly the way it is. This is kind of the idea of Universalism, I think. So you don't believe in Eternal Torment then? Or do you believe that for those who reject Christ...there is a kind of eternal torment? In that case there are two types of Hell? What do you believe about that?
And I agree with you much more than I agree with this passage from James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." I think this passage is just utter nonsense. It's from this that we get ideas that all sins are just as bad as each other.
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