would it still be Heaven to you if none of the people you loved on Earth weren't there? (Christ, Bible)
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You have some fundamental issues to resolve here, Juni. If we are to save ourselves by our actions . . . how is Christ our Savior? Are WE our own saviors or is Christ our Savior?
You and I have two completely different views when it comes to salvation. Christ is our Savior! But we have to justify it with our actions. We can't say, "Ok, thanks for that. I'll sit back and do nothing because I know you already did it all on Calvary's cross." No, I'm sorry, that's not how it works. In the Old Testament they didn't "do nothing" to atone for their sins. It was a process. If they were to sacrifice the first bull, they had to make sure it was clean before God. I'm sure that took months and months of work to keep that bull pure until it was time for them to sacrifice it. This preparation applied to everything they sacrificed. Jesus came and changed our plan of salvation but He didn't take the "action" out of it. If there is no action on our part then His sacrifice was all for nothing.
I'm not ashamed and I don't try to hide it... I'm a "doer" when it comes to my walk with God.
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
I know for a fact that I don't have fundamental issues to resolve. There are countless records of "actions" listed in the NT scriptures. The "actions" don't stop when someone is born again either. The "actions" only multiply.
Dr. Hahn is very good at explaining this and he was a minister as well. He came home to the Catholic church, a convert from Protestantism, and now lectures on the faith.
Did you go to the movie, "Gravity"? If you did then you heard the main character say, when she thought she was dying and she had no friends or family to speak of, since she just had her work and not much else, "Who will pray for my soul?" She was talking about being in Purgatory and having people who are alive praying for her after her death.
I could have told her, "you will have Catholics praying for your soul, don't worry." Catholics pray for the poor souls in Purgatory all the time, it is said in each Mass and privately for those who will do it. Beautiful really.
You and I have two completely different views when it comes to salvation. Christ is our Savior! But we have to justify it with our actions. We can't say, "Ok, thanks for that. I'll sit back and do nothing because I know you already did it all on Calvary's cross." No, I'm sorry, that's not how it works. In the Old Testament they didn't "do nothing" to atone for their sins. It was a process. If they were to sacrifice the first bull, they had to make sure it was clean before God. I'm sure that took months and months of work to keep that bull pure until it was time for them to sacrifice it. This preparation applied to everything they sacrificed. Jesus came and changed our plan of salvation but He didn't take the "action" out of it. If there is no action on our part then His sacrifice was all for nothing.
Yes we do have different understanding of what salvation is . . . because you are conflating our salvation with our sanctification and justification under Christ's love for us all. They are two very different things. We have NOTHING to do with our salvation. That is entirely Christ. He insured that we all are not separated from God. But we DO have the responsibility to be justified and sanctified under Christ's love for us all by following His instructions to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. That has nothing to do with our salvation . . . but it enables us to have the cover before God of Christ's perfection for our imperfections.
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I'm not ashamed and I don't try to hide it... I'm a "doer" when it comes to my walk with God.
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
I know for a fact that I don't have fundamental issues to resolve. There are countless records of "actions" listed in the NT scriptures. The "actions" don't stop when someone is born again either. The "actions" only multiply.
You have nothing to be ashamed about. You are following Christ's instructions. More Christians should do so. Just recognize that it has nothing to do with your salvation (so you cannot take any credit for being saved) . . . but you can be assured of Christ's cover before God for your imperfections.
You have some fundamental issues to resolve here, Juni. If we are to save ourselves by our actions . . . how is Christ our Savior? Are WE our own saviors or is Christ our Savior?
sigh.
Well...Christ opened the doorway to salvation...but it is still up to us to "pick up the cross and follow"
It's not exclusively Christ nor Us that makes it happen. It's a perfect partnership. But you knew that already!
You and I have two completely different views when it comes to salvation. Christ is our Savior! But we have to justify it with our actions. We can't say, "Ok, thanks for that. I'll sit back and do nothing because I know you already did it all on Calvary's cross." No, I'm sorry, that's not how it works. In the Old Testament they didn't "do nothing" to atone for their sins. It was a process. If they were to sacrifice the first bull, they had to make sure it was clean before God. I'm sure that took months and months of work to keep that bull pure until it was time for them to sacrifice it. This preparation applied to everything they sacrificed. Jesus came and changed our plan of salvation but He didn't take the "action" out of it. If there is no action on our part then His sacrifice was all for nothing.
I'm not ashamed and I don't try to hide it... I'm a "doer" when it comes to my walk with God.
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
I know for a fact that I don't have fundamental issues to resolve. There are countless records of "actions" listed in the NT scriptures. The "actions" don't stop when someone is born again either. The "actions" only multiply.
I agree with all of this absolutely.
Christ makes it PERFECTLY clear when he says in Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
You cannot enter the Kingdom unless you DO the WILL of the FATHER.
There is no taking some other scripture from Paul that seems to imply otherwise. Because if that is the case...those scriptures by Paul that contradict Christ get thrown out.
Well that was from a Protestant convert. He thought it was all silly one time as well, until he studied and he was a minister who had gone to seminary.
Why be against Purgatory. It's wonderful God gives us a second chance to clean up our small sins before we can enter heaven. There is no sin in heaven so no one enters if they have any sin on their soul and I don't think you will find anyone who dies perfectly sinless and pure.
Of course you won't find this in the bible. Did you hear Tim Staples say Luther took the books out of the bible that mentioned Purgatory?
Ahhhh, yes, the books of the Bible that aren't in the Bible. If they're not in the Bible then I can only say it's because God intended it to be that way. If there are "books" that claim there's such a thing as purgatory, then it's false doctrine. It would contradict other scriptures in the Bible. Remember, God can do anything. There's nothing too hard or too difficult for Him. If those really were books of the Bible and were meant to be part of our Bible... THEY WOULD BE IN THERE!
I don't know if you are Catholic and I'm not going to jump to any conclusions. But I will give you my opinion on the matter and I am not saying this to offend anyone. This doesn't have to do with a certain person in particular, it has to do with the Catholic belief. I feel, without a doubt, the Catholic Church is a false doctrine. As a matter of fact, the Pope is fulfilling Bible prophecy right before our eyes. He is uniting all types of religions as one. Upon being "united" they become daughters of the Catholic Church. That is definitely a big no no and sends up all sorts of red flags. I could mention several other reasons but I'm afraid I may offend someone, and that is not my intentions. I just want you to know where I stand on the whole viewpoint of the Catholic faith and reasoning. They even changed the formula of water baptism, so I can't try and listen to the "reasoning" for other views when the doctrine has been tainted. Which is another big no no.
The YouTube link you shared mentioned a passage: 1 Cor 3:11-15 and claimed purgatory is somewhat mentioned. I'd like to expand on that...
First off, we know that gold and silver are tried by fire. It's a purification process. This is referring to that process, NOT purgatory.
Second, we also know: "For our God is a consuming fire." It's what we do here on earth that purifies us. If you keep reading past verse 15 you will notice in verse 16 it talks about our bodies being the temple. Only way for us to become the temple of God is to be filled with His Spirit. Since He is a consuming fire we go through purification when we are born again. Not in a purgatory somewhere.
Lastly, if you really want to believe in purgatory then you better view earth as purgatory. There aren't any second chances after death or after the rapture.
When Jesus died He took the keys to death, hell and the grave. If purgatory existed why didn't He take those keys too??
You are one way or the other. FOR HIM OR AGAINST HIM! We have to choose now.
As you can see in just a small amount of scriptures there isn't a tiny little hint of an alternative.
"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
You have nothing to be ashamed about. You are following Christ's instructions. More Christians should do so. Just recognize that it has nothing to do with your salvation (so you cannot take any credit for being saved) . . . but you can be assured of Christ's cover before God for your imperfections.
Then we both could have saved ourselves the trouble of this discussion because I never said I was taking credit or that I was solely responsible for my salvation. If it had not been for the love and mercy of God, I would not have salvation at all.
I don't think people have a clear understanding of what being born again means. When we are born again of the water and the Spirit we let our old self die and we are born into a new life. We leave our past life behind, that includes our sinful ways. If I sin it is not due to an addiction, wickedness, adultery, idolatry, etc. My sins are the type that are within myself. Such as what I think or maybe my attitude if I had a bad day. I don't watch tv, I don't listen to secular music, basically, if it doesn't glorify God I don't do it. I read my Bible a few hours a day and I walk close with Him daily. Am I perfect? Absolutely not!
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Originally Posted by janelle144
There is no sin in heaven so no one enters if they have any sin on their soul and I don't think you will find anyone who dies perfectly sinless and pure.
Watch this short clip and towards the end you will see what happens to the sins of the person who has been born again.
Isaiah 65:16-18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
16 that he who blesseth himself in the earth
shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth
shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten,
and because they are hid from mine eyes.
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered,
nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create:
for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing,
and her people a joy.
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If it had not been for the love and mercy of God, I would not have salvation at all.
