What do Mormons really believe? Let's discuss Mormonism!!! (Creator, devils, mission)

[godofthunder]

Originally Posted by Preterist

godofthunder: I believe the burden of proof is on you, but I will respond. The reason I have not is that these issues have all been covered before and most Mormons have been taught our arguements and have been taught how to "refute" them.

Why would that be? How do Mormons know what you're going to throw at them before you throw it? They know because the whole thing is a canned and scripted response written up by some Baptist somewhere.

I sit back and watch the dispicable behavior of people claiming to be my fellow Christians and I'm disgusted by it. Like a bunch of rabid attack dogs, they race to attack their prey. Their victim? Mormons.

The burden of proof is not on me because you have yet to establish that you know why you believe what you believe. You've clearly done no research, or very little research on any of these matters. You are blindly regurgitating a canned and scripted response that someone else taught you.

This is how it always plays out--I will give you the Scriptures and you will state that they do not teach what I say they teach. You will not, I predict, deal with the verses and texts I give you but will do an end around and come back with verses you think contradict my verses, yada, yada, yada. It always goes this way.

And the whole exercise plays out this way for one very simple reason: The Biblical record alone has room for both opinions. If the Mormons were the first to come up with the idea of "Three distinct persons, one god" (Call it Godhead if you like, whatever you like, it hardly matters), then you're viewpoint would be strengthened.

They are not the first. There were many Christians who believed the same things about the nature of God who lived immediately after the Apostles. Were they mistaken? I can't see any easy way to prove Arianism and Gnosticism right or wrong.

But as soon as I have time, I will recount it all again--as though you don't already know the arguments. Many, many Christians have already stated them. You really do not need me to spell them out for you.

You might save yourself the time and effort. I have a fair idea of what passages of scripture you intend to use. I also have a fair idea of what passages of scripture are the typical rebuttals.

I come back to my point made earlier: The issue simply cannot be decided by a contest of pitting different passages of the Bible against each other. I prefer not to participate in such nonsense if I can help it. The fact remains, there is plenty of room for both concepts within the Biblical text.

You have not clearly stated the support behind your beliefs and from where you get them.

I have not stated them because I am not solidly on one side or the other. I see merits and logic for the Trinitarian doctrine, however I see room for the Arian doctrine as well. In some ways, the Trinitarian Doctrine seems to better fit the scriptures. In some ways, the Arian Doctrine seems to better fit the scriptures. The truth of the matter is, Arianism is a lot less confusing. That doesn't make it true though.

I am doing what I believe is right -- sticking up for a group of people who are under attack by a very bitter and very venomous group of people. People who have the audacity to believe that they have the right to decide who does or does not have the right to call themselves "Christians."

If a Mormon wants to tell me he or she is a Christian, I am not going to argue with them.

You think it should satisfy us for you to simply say: "I believe in Jesus" or "I am a Christian just like you."

No, I don't think anything will ever satisfy you. You are possessed of the same wicked spirit that conspired to murder the Mormon "prophet" Joseph Smith. It may not be in you unto murder, but given time and the right circumstances, it very well might get you there. You will blindly continue your attack because you are so sure you are right. With that to work with, there is no limit to the terrible things you can be inspired to do.

I hope that you will repent and ask God to remove this wicked spirit of bitterness from you. You have laid your contempt for the Mormons out for all the world to see, and I say it is an ugly thing. It is not of God. It is leading you down a path of hatred and self-righteous judgementalism.

I continue to pray that you will come to know the real Jesus!

While you are at it, can you go ahead and pray for God to part the Red Sea, knock over the walls of Jerico, part the River Jordan and anything else you can think of that have already happened?

Who on Earth gave Preterist or any other person the right to define "Who has the right to call themselves Christians." Since when did the followers of Christ become a judgemental pack of elitists, who pick and choose who can or cannot join their limited fraternity? Who wrote the rules? What are they? Is it of God?

Preterist, I'd like to propose an exercise for you. You're responses pretty much give you aways as a Protestant - probably a Baptist. The Holy Catholic Church claims you are a heretic for breaking away from God's one True Church. Since you seem to delight in making others "prove their rights", I would like for you to prove to me CONCLUSIVELY your Denomination's right to exist outside of the Holy Catholic Church.

If you are unable to do so, perhaps you will understand what it is like to be persecuted by your fellow Christians.

[zimbabwe]

Originally Posted by urbanlemur

The creed merely stated what was known to be written in the Bible. BTW, I'm sure you know that the term catholic means "universal" whereas the term catholic used by the church today is a doctrinal term.

It is possible for personal revelation and it does happen but as far as church-wide revelation, it is believed that God gave us what we need so there is no need for a wide spread occurance. Besides, the revelations given to Joseph Smith revealed much doctrine that differed from what was already in place. LDS see it as revelation that God gave to mankind recently as a result of apostasy, others see it as that which was not necessary, then or now. Where was the apostasy or the falling away? If there were no christians at the time Joseph Smith received the plates, that is one thing. There were, however, a good number of believers around when this event took place. So was this "new" revelation necessary?

Urban, It was you that said the Creed was crafted under the inspiration of God. What is "inspiration" if not revelation. And no the creed is not spelled out in the Bible. I have posted many scriptures referring to the corporeal nature of God. I have posted many scriptures that tell us we are the spiritual offsrping of God. You have ignored all of them.

[zimbabwe]

Urban:

Now it is clear that Jesus was resurrected, and he was ressurected with a body, an immortal body. Why do you deny this?



Luke 24:

36 ¶ And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

[Preterist]

Originally Posted by godofthunder

Why would that be? How do Mormons know what you're going to throw at them before you throw it? They know because the whole thing is a canned and scripted response written up by some Baptist somewhere.

I sit back and watch the dispicable behavior of people claiming to be my fellow Christians and I'm disgusted by it. Like a bunch of rabid attack dogs, they race to attack their prey. Their victim? Mormons.

The burden of proof is not on me because you have yet to establish that you know why you believe what you believe. You've clearly done no research, or very little research on any of these matters. You are blindly regurgitating a canned and scripted response that someone else taught you.

And the whole exercise plays out this way for one very simple reason: The Biblical record alone has room for both opinions. If the Mormons were the first to come up with the idea of "Three distinct persons, one god" (Call it Godhead if you like, whatever you like, it hardly matters), then you're viewpoint would be strengthened.

They are not the first. There were many Christians who believed the same things about the nature of God who lived immediately after the Apostles. Were they mistaken? I can't see any easy way to prove Arianism and Gnosticism right or wrong.

You might save yourself the time and effort. I have a fair idea of what passages of scripture you intend to use. I also have a fair idea of what passages of scripture are the typical rebuttals.

I come back to my point made earlier: The issue simply cannot be decided by a contest of pitting different passages of the Bible against each other. I prefer not to participate in such nonsense if I can help it. The fact remains, there is plenty of room for both concepts within the Biblical text.

I have not stated them because I am not solidly on one side or the other. I see merits and logic for the Trinitarian doctrine, however I see room for the Arian doctrine as well. In some ways, the Trinitarian Doctrine seems to better fit the scriptures. In some ways, the Arian Doctrine seems to better fit the scriptures. The truth of the matter is, Arianism is a lot less confusing. That doesn't make it true though.

I am doing what I believe is right -- sticking up for a group of people who are under attack by a very bitter and very venomous group of people. People who have the audacity to believe that they have the right to decide who does or does not have the right to call themselves "Christians."

If a Mormon wants to tell me he or she is a Christian, I am not going to argue with them.

No, I don't think anything will ever satisfy you. You are possessed of the same wicked spirit that conspired to murder the Mormon "prophet" Joseph Smith. It may not be in you unto murder, but given time and the right circumstances, it very well might get you there. You will blindly continue your attack because you are so sure you are right. With that to work with, there is no limit to the terrible things you can be inspired to do.

I hope that you will repent and ask God to remove this wicked spirit of bitterness from you. You have laid your contempt for the Mormons out for all the world to see, and I say it is an ugly thing. It is not of God. It is leading you down a path of hatred and self-righteous judgementalism.

While you are at it, can you go ahead and pray for God to part the Red Sea, knock over the walls of Jerico, part the River Jordan and anything else you can think of that have already happened?

Who on Earth gave Preterist or any other person the right to define "Who has the right to call themselves Christians." Since when did the followers of Christ become a judgemental pack of elitists, who pick and choose who can or cannot join their limited fraternity? Who wrote the rules? What are they? Is it of God?

Preterist, I'd like to propose an exercise for you. You're responses pretty much give you aways as a Protestant - probably a Baptist. The Holy Catholic Church claims you are a heretic for breaking away from God's one True Church. Since you seem to delight in making others "prove their rights", I would like for you to prove to me CONCLUSIVELY your Denomination's right to exist outside of the Holy Catholic Church.

If you are unable to do so, perhaps you will understand what it is like to be persecuted by your fellow Christians.

You don't know me or my spirit, godofthunder. But you have determined that you know! If you knew me, you would know that I have no spirit of wicked bitterness toward Mormons.

God gave us the right to discern what is truth through His Word and His Word alone. Again, I have NO DENOMINATION. How many times do I have to say that, godofthunder? I have many difficulties with denominationalism. I have said that many times. It exists only because man cannot or will not accept the clear teachings of the Scriptures and have created their own distinctions. That said, I do not believe those distinctions in and of themselves disqualify a denomintion from Christianity. The question is still and will always be: Who is Jesus?

Here is my heart and my spirit, godofthunder (and there is no murderous intent nor will there ever be--that is not the way of Christ!)--I share because I believe that belief in the Jesus of the Bible (fully God and fully Man, eternally existent with the eternal and one and only Father) is the only means of salvation. The flesh does not like to be told that it is lost. It wants to puff itself up and make itself acceptable to God. That is impossible. Jesus did not merely make the way of salvation--He is salvation. We trust in His finished work on the cross alone. We contribute nothing. "By grace are you saved through faith, and that NOT of yourself; it is the gift of God NOT of works lest anyone should boast" (Eph. 2).

Your desire to work your way to God only indicates that you do not understand that ALL of man's greatest righteousnesses are as filthy rags to a holy righteous God. In our flesh, we do no good thing. That is the state of man apart from salvation in Christ and the new nature of the new birth which alone can produce good works. Unless one is saved by Christ's works and His work alone, he is still dead in his trespasses and sins. You will never work your way to God.

Again, I repent of nothing concerning these matters. God alone knows my heart and my intentions. The world hated Christ and it will continue to hate all who are His. So in reality, it is not me whom they hate but Christ Himself. You accuse me of merely repeating that which I have been told, but you have no idea how long and how extensively I have studied these matters for myself. You are again reaching conclusions about me without the necessary facts.

Have you really investigated the Jesus of the Bible apart from Mormon commentary? I am sorry that you and others are turned off by the abundance of denominations who claim to be Christian and yet separate themselves from others through denominationalism. Let me assure you that I hate it also. There is no excuse for it and I will make no apologetic in its defense. How did this all come about and what keeps perpetuating it?--the desire of men to put the traditions of men above the Word of God, the acceptance of extra-biblical teachings, and sadly, the laziness of Christians to study for themselves and hold their leaders accountable for what is taught from their pulpits and in their writings.

I continue to pray for you, godofthunder, for it is God alone who saves!

Preterist

[Huckleberry3911948]

mormans believe their own beliefs. as long as i continue to believe mine
and they theirs everything goes very well. i admire them for their
beliefs but especially their accomplishments. discipline and order
are always to be admired.

[stycotl]

Originally Posted by Preterist

godofthunder: Who first offended whom? Was it not Joseph Smith, taking opportunities afforded him by the inexcusable differences in doctrine prevalent in Christendom, who declared all mainstream churches accursed by God and totally void of the gospel message? Does not the Mormon church continue to teach such things--that only Mormons have the true restored gospel? Do you find it strange that WE find that offensive? It is just as offensive to me when I drive down a street and see a sign for a "FULL" Gospel church, suggesting that all others have only a partial gospel of some kind. In the case of Mormon attacks on Christian doctrine and possession of the Gospel, are we being proactive or reactive? I suggest the latter.

Again, you could facilitate understanding it you would clearly acknowledge or disavow that your church teaches the following:

Jesus, Satan, and all of us for that matter are created beings who are the progeny of a father god and mother god who reign over this world. We were all related before we were transported into the physical bodies of babies born here on earth.

According to Mormon doctrine, Jesus is God's son only in the sense that we all are--except that He was specially chosen to be the savior of mankind.

The god, with whom we have to do, was once a mere man. But he, through good works, achieved godhood just as any good MORMON man can do. Once a man achieves such godhood, he becomes god with his god-wife over another planet. They procreate and produce spiritual children with which to populate that world.

Those who claim to be Christians outside of Mormonism will also enter heaven--but never the highest level. Only Mormons in good standing can do that. Most of us will barely squeak by and will occupy the very lowest levels of heaven. No nonMormon will ever attain godhood. But this should not offend US?

If this is what you believe, claim it openly. If this is not what you believe, claim so openly.

You cannot believe the above things and expect that we who hold only to the Christ portrayed in the Bible alone should accept you into the fold of Christianity. Why is that so hard for you to understand? If you believe the above things, you do not believe in our Jesus and you are not a Christian in the sense that that term has always been understood.

I have nothing to seek forgiveness from God for regarding these matters as someone suggested. As a true follower of Christ, I expect to be hated and misunderstood. Christ warned us of such things because He Himself was hated and misunderstood. That will not dissuade me. Why? Because I seek to win an argument or bash other people's religions? No! But because in the message of Christ and His salvation lies the only hope for lost sinners. I seek not to make someone a baptist, or a presbyterian or a methodist. I seek only to proclaim the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, God of very God, eternally existent with the Father, and the only way of salvation for a lost world.

Again, repent and believe on the name of the true Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. There is no salvation in the Mormon Jesus.

Preterist

you asked for a response to your earlier points. i clarified. i told you what the --official-- church doctrine is, and you ignore it completely. you continue trying to convince me that i believe that Christ is merely a man, only God's son in as far as we all are.

you continue to support your thesis that mormon doctrine is meant to be an attack against other faiths, claiming that mormons believe that we are the only ones going to heaven, and that we might throw the rest of you some scraps.

you are simply ignoring what i --a mormon-- am telling you --not a mormon-- that we believe in order to support your own argument.

i was speaking of logical fallacies in another post. i could go to town here.

are you ever going to address those issues? do you ignore them because you think i am unaware of my church's teachings, or that i am lying to you? do you suppose that simply ignoring the questions will strengthen your own position?

if this is to be a collaborative discussion, which i think that we should aim to create, then it means that we speak openly and honestly about that which we claim.

anyway, i just wish that i could understand better by what authority and measuring stick you are deciding who the believers in Christ in the world are. you are making a lot of ultimatums that are not in the bible, and therefore, if you believe them to be God's will, as zimbabwe stated earlier, would require the continued application of worldwide revelation.

i do think it is possible to rerail this discussion and find a sort of peace despite different beliefs.

please read (or reread) my last post and answer the questions/address the issues therein. it would help the rest of us to see why you believe the way you do.

aaron out.

[urbanlemur]

Urban, It was you that said the Creed was crafted under the inspiration of God.

I never said that. I said that the words of the Bible were written under His inspiration. The Bible was compiled by inspiration. The creed was written by men reflecting what was in the Bible.

Now it is clear that Jesus was resurrected, and he was ressurected with a body, an immortal body. Why do you deny this?

Nowhere did I write this. Did he ressurect with a transfigured body-yes. A tangible body-yes, at least while He was on earth. We don't know what He is like now. A corporeal body like the flesh and blood we have-I don't believe so.

You have ignored all of them.

Are we getting a little pushed out of shape here? Please don't because we're just here to exchange ideas.

[zimbabwe]

[quote=urbanlemur;2618775]Help me understand something here. godofthunder and others, you state that because the Bible was compiled by a group of men who made up a council, that Bible doctrine is incorrect as a result? Is this why the mormon church believes in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly?(AOF?) Even though the Bible is a collection of writings from Moses to Paul, the Bible is not entirely accurate just because men assembled it? Is is not possible that the men of that council were as divinely inspired to assemble those books just as mormons believe Joseph Smith was when he assembled the BOM?[/quote]
This is what I was talking about Urban

[zimbabwe]

Originally Posted by urbanlemur

I never said that. I said that the words of the Bible were written under His inspiration. The Bible was compiled by inspiration. The creed was written by men reflecting what was in the Bible.


Nowhere did I write this. Did he ressurect with a transfigured body-yes. A tangible body-yes, at least while He was on earth. We don't know what He is like now. A corporeal body like the flesh and blood we have-I don't believe so.


Are we getting a little pushed out of shape here? Please don't because we're just here to exchange ideas.

The Scriptures do not say flesh and blood, but rather flesh and bone--an important distinction.

[twin.spin]

A few thoughhts, godofthunder,

Originally Posted by godofthunder

Do a little research and you might learn something.

Pontius Pilate did that also. He didn't learn much. What good is research when somebody doesn't believe that Jesus is THE way, THE truth, and THE life. Let me quote Jesus (whom you say you believe in)
John 6:29 "Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Romans 4:5 "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

Faith, not works, is what makes you righteous. Its because of GRACE that
"for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose" Philippians 2:13

But "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left" Hebrews 10:36
states how our lives are to reflect Jesus's sacrifice for us. (Subsitute not example)
(Sergeant, this should answer your question about how to become righteous.)
If after a little research, you're unable to to see the difference between Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of BoM, then Pilates' cynical question is the question today;
Truth, what is the truth?

Originally Posted by godofthunder

Belittling the Spiritual experiences of others does not make you better than them.

Expecially when you're spitting into the wind.

Originally Posted by godofthunder

Unfortunately, 99% of what you just said is based upon denominational dogma and is not explicitly stated in Scripture. Don't get me wrong, you're coming to a lot of excellent conclusions, but if you are going to attempt to somehow prove that somebody else has no right to call themselves Christians, please check your own denomination's dogmas at the door and stick things that are actually contained in the Bible.

Thanks, this is a good "sticky". Just change to "else has the right to call themselves Christians" and you've hit the point exactly! Well done.

Originally Posted by godofthunder

By the way, it so happens that no all Christians accept the idea that "God spoke the world into existence." There are other viewpoints. And again, there is no verse of scripture that ever says, "God spoke the world into existence." That is just yet another example of scriptural interpretation favored by some denominations.

What Bible do you use?
Genesis 1:3
And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light
also in 1:6, 9, 11, 14, 15, 20, 22, 24.

Originally Posted by godofthunder

Preterist, I sincerely hope that God will one day forgive you for your self-righteous bigotry against others.

Originally Posted by godofthunder
Belittling the Spiritual experiences of others does not make you better than them,........... those who live in glass houses

Originally Posted by godofthunder

Most Christians have no idea how their own sect came into being nor how it's own doctrines developed. The majority of Protestant Christianity knows more about what is wrong with Mormonism and it's history than they know about the history of their own denomination.

Christian doctrines are found in John 1:1-15. No, I just "test the spirits". I don't rely on "What I believe!" but on what God has said. Just like Jesus did when he was tempted by the devil...... Jesus quoted scripture in responce. Today (though you may not agree) we also have the words of Jesus as part of scripture, the NT. That is our doctrine.

Originally Posted by godofthunder

I've yet to come up with anything within Mormon beliefs that would keep them from the Kingdom of God. I've also yet to come up with anything that they believe that is expressly contrary to the Bible.

Do a little research and you might learn something

Originally Posted by godofthunder

It is quite interesting to me that they seem to be one of the first religions to come up with a way to claim their doctrine and set of beliefs are the correct ones (just like everyone else has) without damning everyone else to hell for eternity.

Matthew7:13-14
Actually, Christianity has been the exception to the "everybody gets there....eventually". Can you name any others?

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

**sigh** Another one of those pesky anti-mormon Bible verses