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I agree that there seems to be some sort of misunderstanding on this topic. Let me try to explain where I think the miscommunication is coming into play. I apologize in advance if I don't make sense.
First, the protestant viewpoint is that grace is all that is necessary to make it to heaven. I think a lot of LDS people take that to mean that we can say a prayer and then proceed to live any way we please, knowing that our ticket has been stamped. That is, unfortunately, how some choose to act, but I don't agree with that method. I think the majority of protestants believe that the grace is what gets you there, but once you are "saved" you are a new creation. You will now desire to do the things of the Lord and to please him. Basicly, grace equals salvation, which is naturally followed by good works.
The LDS have the statement that you mentioned above...
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
and protestants generally look at this and focus on the second half. To us it looks like the LDS salvation is based on grace and works. Don't get me wrong, I think it is of extreme importance to live a life in obedience to the Lord, but I don't believe it is what gets you to heaven. I think it is just two different ways of looking at the same thing.
I do have a question regarding this topic, though. I had a friend who is LDS and has been through the temple. We were discussing Jesus, and I told her that the protestant belief is that his blood was sufficient to cleanse us of all of our sins. She said that she didn't agree with that. She believed his blood could cleanse us of some sin, but not all. Is this the same among all Mormons, or was she mistaken?
First, the protestant viewpoint is that grace is all that is necessary to make it to heaven. I think a lot of LDS people take that to mean that we can say a prayer and then proceed to live any way we please, knowing that our ticket has been stamped. That is, unfortunately, how some choose to act, but I don't agree with that method. I think the majority of protestants believe that the grace is what gets you there, but once you are "saved" you are a new creation. You will now desire to do the things of the Lord and to please him. Basicly, grace equals salvation, which is naturally followed by good works.
Just a note of clarification -- "grace is all that is necessary" is most definitely not broadly accepted by all Protestant faiths. The experience of Martin Luther certainly threw great emphasis on the importance of grace. But there are extremely diverse views on the subject of "saved by grace" within Protestantism. Baptists and most Charismatics seem to focus heavily upon "saved by grace" as a principal. So do a number of others. A great many other Protestant religions view "saved by grace -- once saved always saved" as false doctrine.
I have actually experience a conversation with a hardcore proponent of Salvation by Grace that told me that even if he were to murder someone in cold blood, he would still be saved and guaranteed a place in God's Kingdom. I am a Protestant but I do not agree with Born Again Christian philosophy. My opinion is that God does not take away our freedom to choose, therefore he will not stop us from walking away from of Him.
Quote:
The LDS have the statement that you mentioned above...
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
and protestants generally look at this and focus on the second half. To us it looks like the LDS salvation is based on grace and works. Don't get me wrong, I think it is of extreme importance to live a life in obedience to the Lord, but I don't believe it is what gets you to heaven. I think it is just two different ways of looking at the same thing.
I do have a question regarding this topic, though. I had a friend who is LDS and has been through the temple. We were discussing Jesus, and I told her that the protestant belief is that his blood was sufficient to cleanse us of all of our sins. She said that she didn't agree with that. She believed his blood could cleanse us of some sin, but not all. Is this the same among all Mormons, or was she mistaken?
Mormons seem to be as guilty as Protestants and Catholics at not studying the teachings and doctrines of their own faith. I think that the Mormons have a bad habit of making too much out of the differences between Born Again Christianity and their own beliefs in being saved by grace -- conditionally.
They do in fact believe in being saved by grace, according to all their literature and according to the words of their leaders. It's almost silly that I know this better than that particular Mormon friend of yours, but I can say with absolute certainty that Mormons DO believe that the sacrifice of Christ (call it the blood or something else, it hardly matters) is the only means of salvation from their sins. They do believe that you must qualify yourself -- which is not contrary to the Born Again philosophy. Born Again belief states that you have to actually turn to Christ and ask for forgiveness. You can't do nothing and expect salvation. This is true from both viewpoints. This is also something that Mormons, Born Again Christians and the rest of us Protestants generally have in common. You have to do SOMETHING.
The means of qualifying yourself for the Christs blood to wash away your sins -- this is where various Protestant groups are in great disagreement. This is also where Born Again Christians conflict with Mormonism.
I've no doubt that Zimbabwe can explain it all better than I can, since he is a part of that religion, but that's my 2 cents.
I do have a question regarding this topic, though. I had a friend who is LDS and has been through the temple. We were discussing Jesus, and I told her that the protestant belief is that his blood was sufficient to cleanse us of all of our sins. She said that she didn't agree with that. She believed his blood could cleanse us of some sin, but not all. Is this the same among all Mormons, or was she mistaken?
I do have a question regarding this topic, though. I had a friend who is LDS and has been through the temple. We were discussing Jesus, and I told her that the protestant belief is that his blood was sufficient to cleanse us of all of our sins. She said that she didn't agree with that. She believed his blood could cleanse us of some sin, but not all. Is this the same among all Mormons, or was she mistaken?
Her particular perspective probably stems from a rather murky mixture of scripture, discussion, and interpretation. I must admit I have not really delved too deeply into this topic in that I don't intend on committing any of these sins; however, there are some sins that MAY not be pardonable.
The first that comes to mind is denying the Spirit. This is a case where one has a sure and certain knowledge of the existence of God or Jesus and then denies them. I can only state that a sure and certain knowledge would probably require one to be an eyewitness under circumstances that would leave no doubt in one’s mind as to the true identity of who they are. Surprisingly, Church authorities have made statements that Judas does not qualify as one who denied the Spirit. Even though he saw Christ with his own eyes, he did not really have an understanding of who Jesus was.
The punishment for denying the Spirit is banishment to Outer Darkness, but God has not defined what that is. He only states no man has ever seen it, and it is not a Kingdom of Glory and it’s a place “where the worm never dies.” I don’t know what happens there, but it doesn’t sound like a place where anyone will be in the mood to party.
The next sin that comes to mind would be certain forms of murder, but each of these would be weighed individually by the Savior, so I can’t tell you specifically which murder is forgiven and which are not. In cases where a member has committed a violent crime or someone who has committed a violent crime wants to become a member, very high Church authorities get involved.
Now, here’s the good news. Even though some murders are unpardonable, such does not mean the person spends an eternity in Hell or goes to Outer Darkness. Unpardonable sins are not covered by the Atonement of Christ, and the offender must pay for his or her own sin. In short, it means they will suffer pains and anguish in the same manner in which Christ suffered. Once they have paid for their own sin, they will be assigned to an appropriate place.
I was trying to figure out what your friend was thinking of. Two possibilities came to mind. (Basically, the two options that SergeantL has outlined.) Personally, I have found the belief that some murders are not covered by Jesus' atonement is more prevalent among older Mormons--and not recent converts, but Mormons who have been Mormon since the 1970s at least.
Given your friend's age, I would guess that she is talking about the sin of denying the Spirit. (This, by the way, is the sin that my mom was initially afraid I had committed when I left Mormonism. As a Mormon, I tended to view it much like SergeantL, and I think I have since convinced my mom to look at it that way as well.)
I agree that there seems to be some sort of misunderstanding on this topic. Let me try to explain where I think the miscommunication is coming into play. I apologize in advance if I don't make sense.
First, the protestant viewpoint is that grace is all that is necessary to make it to heaven. I think a lot of LDS people take that to mean that we can say a prayer and then proceed to live any way we please, knowing that our ticket has been stamped. That is, unfortunately, how some choose to act, but I don't agree with that method. I think the majority of protestants believe that the grace is what gets you there, but once you are "saved" you are a new creation. You will now desire to do the things of the Lord and to please him. Basicly, grace equals salvation, which is naturally followed by good works.
The LDS have the statement that you mentioned above...
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
and protestants generally look at this and focus on the second half. To us it looks like the LDS salvation is based on grace and works. Don't get me wrong, I think it is of extreme importance to live a life in obedience to the Lord, but I don't believe it is what gets you to heaven. I think it is just two different ways of looking at the same thing.
I do have a question regarding this topic, though. I had a friend who is LDS and has been through the temple. We were discussing Jesus, and I told her that the protestant belief is that his blood was sufficient to cleanse us of all of our sins. She said that she didn't agree with that. She believed his blood could cleanse us of some sin, but not all. Is this the same among all Mormons, or was she mistaken?
I appreciate everyone's comments.
I don't really know what your friend is talking about. There are sins that cannot receive forgiveness, such as sin against the Holy Ghost as Serg has discussed. Only the Lord can make that judgement.
10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. (Luke 12:10)
Otherwise, I don't know what to tell you. You should ask your friend for clarification. We do depend on the blood of Christ to cleanse us from our sins in spite of accusations to the contrary.
And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end (3 Nephi:27:19)
I think most reasonable people would agree that merely giving lip service to a belief in God does no good to anyone if concordant action does not follow. There is an interesting scripture in the Book of Mormon which condemns the thought that we can do what we want as long as we believe in God.
8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. 9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark. (2 Nephi 2:28)
My purpose in this forum is not to win converts but to increase understanding of LDS doctrine. It is useful and helpful to compare Mormon doctrine to protestant doctrine, of which I lack familiarity. If I can dispel the myth that Mormon doctrine is completely without Biblical support, and if I can show that the additional scriptures we use are in harmony with the Bible, then I will have spent my time wisely in this forum.
I give the words of Paul as further evidence that obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel is neccesary. When he was arraigned before King Agrippa, Paul was given a chance to defend his position and his faith. I am sure that his interview with the king was more lengthy than the account we have in the Bible, but I think it can be safely said that Paul didn't have all day to make his case, but rather had to define and defend Christianity in not much more than a few sound bites. He tells, of course, of his persecution of the Christians and of his miraculous converting experience on the road to Damascus. Then what he says next is very interesting.
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (Acts 26:19,20, emphasis added)
What Paul is saying is that he was telling the people to repent and bring forth works of righteousness not simply believe and be saved. Paul wrote to the Hebrews that Jesus was the author of salvation unto all them that obey him. To the Romans he is more expressive:
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath (Romans 2:6-8, emphasis added)
Consider the words of a great prophet-king from the Book of Mormon. He is saying the same thing that Paul is saying:
11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned. 12 But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God! For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. (Mosiah 3:11-12)
It is interesting to note that many believe that they can sin willfully and still be saved in the kingdom of God as long as they believe. But I would ask if that person would truly be happy in the company of the saints and in the company of holy men and women, having chose such a different lifestyle in mortality.
It is interesting to note that many believe that they can sin willfully and still be saved in the kingdom of God as long as they believe. But I would ask if that person would truly be happy in the company of the saints and in the company of holy men and women, having chose such a different lifestyle in mortality.
I am also baffled by the way people believe this. I think that if you believe, and have prayed the prayer of repentance, your life should bear fruit of this change. It shouldn't be just a Sunday commitment, and then return to your old ways Monday through Saturday. Rather, it should be an entire life-style. Your actions, from sunrise to sunset, seven days a week, should reflect the Lord. I know that no one is perfect, so we will slip up, and the old self will rear it's ugly head once in a while. Those are the times that we need to recognize the sin for what it is and address it. Repent for it and move on in living a life pleasing to the Lord.
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