What do Mormons really believe? Let's discuss Mormonism!!! (blessing, baptised, miracles)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?
It's all in the interpretation of the Scripture. The LDS read it as if Paul is stating that the baptism for the dead ordinance was performed by the christians of the time and so it is an ordinance that was reaffirmed in the church. On the other hand, perhaps it may be that some of the Corinthians had been baptized for others who had died without it. Although Paul is neither approving or condemning it, he does use "they" rather than "we" when referring to it. The puzzling aspect is that the Corinthians denied the ressurection, so why would they baptize for such? I guess it's one of those verses that is really hard to nail down.
Well, for obvious reasons, we Protestants don't agree that the church went apostate after the death of the apostles. If we did, we would be saying that we are apostate, and I don't believe that we are. We read in the New Testament how Peter and Paul preached to many people. Large groups became Christians and were baptized. Churches were established. There were groups of Christians all over the Roman Empire. I just find it hard to believe that all of these groups were considered apostate upon the death of the apostles. In Paul's letters, it makes it clear that he was teaching these people to lead themselves. It was impossible for the apostles to be at all of these churches all of the time. What happened in the meantime?
As for the priesthood. We have an entirely different take on things here. First, the verse you quoted in Hebrews that mentions that the priests were called of God, not man. The first half of the book of Hebrews, when read all together, talks about how the law dictated that the priests had to offer blood sacrifices for the sins of the people. This had to be done again and again. But Jesus, our new high priest, has paid the blood sacrifice once and for all. See, Protestants don't view Hebrews as laying out the groundwork for the way the church should be run. To us, it is saying that the old way doesn't work. We no longer have earthly priests. We only have Jesus, who is the ultimate high priest.
Doji--
I've read your post twice to make sure that I understand your objections. They are twofold. 1) There was no great apostacy 2) We do not need the priesthood the way they did in the old testament days because Christ has fulfilled the law. Correct me if I misunderstood your point.
I thought protestants did believe in an apostacy of sorts--one that required a reformation at least. Anyway, It is clear from Paul's epistles that he was very worried that false doctrine would creep into the church after his death. I will offer but a few verses out of many to support this point:
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. (Acts 29-31)
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.(Tim 4:3-4)
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;(2 Thes 2:1-3, emphasis added--Paul preaching that there would be a falling away of aposatsy prior to the second coming of the Lord)
People can stray very quickly from true doctrine and they were doing so even in the time between Paul's visits. Compound the natural propensity of men to pervert the truth with the absence of the Apostles to guide the people, unscupulous and deceitful men, and intense persecution for hundreds of years and you have a recipe for the falling away that Paul predicted. To make matters worse, after the fall of Rome the people fell into ignorance and could not even read the scriptures. Is it any surprise that there was a great spiritual awakening after the Bible became available for the masses to read?
The reformation was an attempt to return to true doctrine was it not?
You are correct that in that chapter (Heb 5) Paul was referring to ancient High Priests who performed ordinances to symbolically cleanse the people from sin. It is a beautiful example of how the Old Testament was designed to point the people to the coming of Christ, the great High Priest who would cleanse us from sin.
But the pattern of calling men to the work of the ministry did not cease with the death of Jesus Christ. Paul taught that the Lord established His church with various offices in the ministry. To the Ephesians he taught that Jesus gave us these ministers for the work of the ministry, for the perfecting of the saints, to teach us and bring us into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Eph 4:11-14)
Have we all come to a unity of faith--meaning the whole world? Do the people not need the anchor of apostles, prophets, pastors and teachers? The Lord chose his disciples to minister in His name to the people and he ordained them to that holy office. The authority to act in the name of God is called the priesthood and it is not something we can take upon ourselves, but we must be called of God, as was Aaron and as were Christ's apostles, by the spirit of prophecy and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority to preach the gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
I've read your post twice to make sure that I understand your objections. They are twofold. 1) There was no great apostacy 2) We do not need the priesthood the way they did in the old testament days because Christ has fulfilled the law. Correct me if I misunderstood your point.
Yes, you understood perfectly.
I also wanted to thank Sarge for his explanation of apostasy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbabwe
I thought protestants did believe in an apostacy of sorts--one that required a reformation at least.
I have never heard of it put that way. Are you referring to Martin Luther beginning the Protestant Reformation from the Catholic Church? If so, I don't view the Catholic Church as apostate. I simply don't agree with their entire doctrine. I still believe that they are Christians. (Does that make sense?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimbabwe
Anyway, It is clear from Paul's epistles that he was very worried that false doctrine would creep into the church after his death. I will offer but a few verses out of many to support this point:
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. (Acts 29-31)
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.(Tim 4:3-4)
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;(2 Thes 2:1-3, emphasis added--Paul preaching that there would be a falling away of aposatsy prior to the second coming of the Lord)
People can stray very quickly from true doctrine and they were doing so even in the time between Paul's visits. Compound the natural propensity of men to pervert the truth with the absence of the Apostles to guide the people, unscupulous and deceitful men, and intense persecution for hundreds of years and you have a recipe for the falling away that Paul predicted. To make matters worse, after the fall of Rome the people fell into ignorance and could not even read the scriptures. Is it any surprise that there was a great spiritual awakening after the Bible became available for the masses to read?
The reformation was an attempt to return to true doctrine was it not?
Yes, I believe that the reformation was an attempt to return to true doctrine. I have always understood the term apostate to mean "falling away" or "forsaking of". I looked it up and the definition of apostate is "a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.". I don't think the church had forsaken their religion, but I think they had added things that were not entirely scriptural.
I think it is easy for any group of people to get away from what the Lord desires for us, if we take our focus off of the Word. If we keep our eyes on the Lord and remain in prayer, and study continually, we should recognize those who would enter our midst and try to steer us into deception. The days that Paul lived in were remarkably similar to the days that we are in now, in that there were many different religious beliefs surrounding the church. Many people converted to Christianity and they brought their upbringings with them. If they didn't have strong leadership, who were grounded in the Word, they would be prone to confusion. I think Paul was simply warning the churches that they should be on the look-out for this.
As for the verse in Second Thessalonians regarding the predicted apostasy that would happen before the second coming of Christ, I believe we are witnessing that this very day. I have never seen the church so confused and prone to deception. In these days of "political correctness", it is so easy for groups to give in to anything so that they avoid offending anybody. This is not the way Christ wanted it, and it was not the way Christ lived. It is necessary for us to take a stand and draw the line in the sand and declare that "as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." But, unfortunately, many choose to merely attend a house of worship one day a week and live however they like the remaining six.
As for the verse in Second Thessalonians regarding the predicted apostasy that would happen before the second coming of Christ, I believe we are witnessing that this very day. I have never seen the church so confused and prone to deception. In these days of "political correctness", it is so easy for groups to give in to anything so that they avoid offending anybody. This is not the way Christ wanted it, and it was not the way Christ lived. It is necessary for us to take a stand and draw the line in the sand and declare that "as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." But, unfortunately, many choose to merely attend a house of worship one day a week and live however they like the remaining six.
I reread my orginal post on the 5th article of faith and I don't see the word "apostate" although the church does refer to a "great apostasy" that neccessitated a restoration of lost truth.
I hasten to agree with Seargent who said "Note, however, that my definition of apostasy does not mean willful or a complete falling from the truth. It means that some aspects have been distorted, misinterpreted, or lost. It also means that things that did not exist somehow found themselves injected into doctrine."
I also believe that Catholics are Christian and I find myself in a position of defending the Catholic Church many times. The Catholic Church claims uninterrupted priesthood authority from Peter. It is logical but we don't believe it ocurred.
I also wanted to thank Sarge for his explanation of apostasy.
I have never heard of it put that way. Are you referring to Martin Luther beginning the Protestant Reformation from the Catholic Church? If so, I don't view the Catholic Church as apostate. I simply don't agree with their entire doctrine. I still believe that they are Christians. (Does that make sense?)
I think there are two kinds of apostacy. One is a willful fighting against a belief or doctrine, when one previously adhered to that doctrine. If we were to refer to someone as "apostate," we would refer to this kind of apostacy.
The second, which we refer to when speaking of the "Great Apostacy" would ocurr when extra-gospel practices or beliefs creep into a religion. This may be caused by somone advancing the first kind of apostacy, but for the majority of adherants, this would not be willful. This would be a case of people doing the best they can to adhere to Christian principles given the circumstances they find themselves in.
As our Doctrine and Covenants states: "There are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it." D&C 123:12
It is not our duty to say that people who don't belong to our Church are not Christians. Many of the people who are most Christian in behavior may not hold our beliefs. We may think some of their practices are not in complete harmony with the Gospel, but that does not negate their sincerity or the goodness of their acts.
Gordon B. Hinckley once told Larry King "We never speak negatively of other churches. We say to people, you bring all the good that you have and let us see if we can add to it."
As LDS, we do believe that after a period of apostacy, the Gospel was restored to eliminate some doctrinal errors that crept in over 1800 years. It is not unlike the reformation. But our additional claim is that proper authority was restored. But we don't believe that all others are bound for hell or under condemnation if they are acting sincerely. Everyone will be judged fairly in the end after having a chance to learn the pure principles to overcome the doctrinal confusion in this world.
You are correct that in that chapter (Heb 5) Paul was referring to ancient High Priests who performed ordinances to symbolically cleanse the people from sin. It is a beautiful example of how the Old Testament was designed to point the people to the coming of Christ, the great High Priest who would cleanse us from sin.
But the pattern of calling men to the work of the ministry did not cease with the death of Jesus Christ. Paul taught that the Lord established His church with various offices in the ministry. To the Ephesians he taught that Jesus gave us these ministers for the work of the ministry, for the perfecting of the saints, to teach us and bring us into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; (Eph 4:11-14)
Have we all come to a unity of faith--meaning the whole world? Do the people not need the anchor of apostles, prophets, pastors and teachers? The Lord chose his disciples to minister in His name to the people and he ordained them to that holy office. The authority to act in the name of God is called the priesthood and it is not something we can take upon ourselves, but we must be called of God, as was Aaron and as were Christ's apostles, by the spirit of prophecy and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority to preach the gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
Ok, like I said earlier, I have a ton of thoughts going through my head, so I will do my best to convey them clearly.
First...in just reading through this post, I agree with what you are saying. We obviously still have leadership positions in any church (pastors, teachers, etc...). My husband and I have heard the call of the Lord on our lives and are just waiting for Him to lead us in the direction He has for us. I have known many pastors and teachers through my life who have been clearly called of God to do His work. They have been beacons of light in a dark world. I agree that the call of the Lord is a necessity for any of these positions. If someone is a pastor just becase their daddy and granddaddy before them were pastors, then they are in it for the wrong reasons.
Second...correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that every male in the LDS church attends priesthood classes. If I'm wrong, I apologize. If I'm right, let me ask this: Does this mean that every male is called of God to be a priest? To me (and I admit I know very little of this process), it would seem that it is just another "right of passage" and that they are "taking the priesthood upon themselves". I am a little confused by this whole process.
I am not entirely clear on what purpose the LDS priesthood serves. From the outside looking in, I do know that you have Bishops who lead the wards. Are they the equivilant of a pastor? I know they are not exactly the same, as the congregation in a ward does most of the service, unlike our churches, where the pastor gives a sermon every week. When I read the Ephesians passage, I am thinking of church leadership, not every man in the church.
I feel like I'm rambling, and I am having trouble articulating my questions. I'm going to let you guys respond to what I have asked and maybe it will help me form my other questions. Thank you all for your patience.
Ok, like I said earlier, I have a ton of thoughts going through my head, so I will do my best to convey them clearly.
First...in just reading through this post, I agree with what you are saying. We obviously still have leadership positions in any church (pastors, teachers, etc...). My husband and I have heard the call of the Lord on our lives and are just waiting for Him to lead us in the direction He has for us. I have known many pastors and teachers through my life who have been clearly called of God to do His work. They have been beacons of light in a dark world. I agree that the call of the Lord is a necessity for any of these positions. If someone is a pastor just becase their daddy and granddaddy before them were pastors, then they are in it for the wrong reasons.
Second...correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that every male in the LDS church attends priesthood classes. If I'm wrong, I apologize. If I'm right, let me ask this: Does this mean that every male is called of God to be a priest? To me (and I admit I know very little of this process), it would seem that it is just another "right of passage" and that they are "taking the priesthood upon themselves". I am a little confused by this whole process.
I am not entirely clear on what purpose the LDS priesthood serves. From the outside looking in, I do know that you have Bishops who lead the wards. Are they the equivilant of a pastor? I know they are not exactly the same, as the congregation in a ward does most of the service, unlike our churches, where the pastor gives a sermon every week. When I read the Ephesians passage, I am thinking of church leadership, not every man in the church.
I feel like I'm rambling, and I am having trouble articulating my questions. I'm going to let you guys respond to what I have asked and maybe it will help me form my other questions. Thank you all for your patience.
Doji--
You are smart and have asked some insightful questions. I welcome other LDS in this forum to weigh in on this too.
It is important to remember that the Lord's mission is to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man(kind). A wise man once noticed that among the ancient ruins which still stood most did so because they supported a weight. Likewise, good pastors know that involving the lay membership in positions of responsibility is good for the members and increases their faith and confidence in spiritual matters. That is what it is all about isn't it?
The Lord in a revelation to Joseph Smith explained why He called a prophet in these latter days. Among other reasons, He explained that He spake unto Joseph Smith and gave unto him commandments "that every man might speak in the name of God, the Lord, even the Savior of the world; That faith might also increase in the earth;" (D & C 1:20)
Except for the general authorities (a very small number) who of neccessity recieve a small living stipend, the LDS church has a lay ministry. Bishops in the church are men of God who work for their own living and give service in the Church without monetary compensation. There are many positions of responsibility in the church, all of which are filled by the members themselves without monetary compensation On Sunday the sermons are given by the members themselves--including our youth who are given opportunities to speak in church. Some people have made fun of the church for this practice, implying that we have a "bush league" ministry, but many also recognize that it brings us unto Christ in a greater degree than passive membership.
Having said this, there are many opportunities for sevice in the Church. Some of these acts of service require the authority of the priesthood to act in the name of God. The preparation, blessing, and passing of the sacrament (holy communion) to the congregation each week is an example of such service. It requires priesthood authority, exersized under the direction of local authorities. Our young men are trained from their youth to prepare themselves for a life of service which includes the priesthood. True, if not guarded against, it can devolve into a "rite of passage", which is not pleasing in the sight of God or in keeping with the principles of the Gospel. Each young man must be interviewed by the Bishop to determine his worthiness before recieving the priesthood of God. The young man cannot take this priesthood upon himself of his own volition. The Priesthood he receives is called the Aaronic Priesthood or the lesser priesthood. The priesthood is for blessing the lives of others.
Aaron was called of God to recieve the priesthood and officiate in the tabernacle of God. There are many offices or positions of authority in the Church which require the priesthood but a man must be called of God and set apart before he acts in that capacity. The Bishop is an example of such. The calling of an apostle is another example. Matthias did not make himself an apostle nor did he campaign to be made an apostle, but the remaining 11 apostles gathered together and prayerfully considered who the Lord would have them call to replace Judas. They chose Matthias and called him and set him apart. As Paul said, "No man taketh this honor on himself, but he that is called of God.."
I should also say that our young women also are trained to give service but do not hold the priesthood. They hold many positions of responsibility but with a few exceptions do not officiate in ordinances requiring the priesthood authority.
Last edited by zimbabwe; 02-08-2008 at 12:38 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
