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Rev 6:9-11 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?" Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Here you have souls in heaven, who are conscious of their state, who are aware of what is happening on earth, and who are in direct communication with God.
These same souls are addressed in Rev 18:20 regarding the destruction of Babylon, which is the judgment they had sought: Rejoice over her, O heaven, O saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her!" How could saints, apostles and prophets in heaven rejoice, if they were (doh!) not in heaven?
Also note the "chapter" divisions in the Bible were not there originally, and that the end of Hebrews 11 and the start of Hebrews 12 is a continuous thought, which reads as follows:
They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword; they went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, ill-treated -- of whom the world was not worthy -- wandering over deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
How could these martyrs be called "witnesses" of our own actions here and now, unless they are conscious in heaven?
And what of the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16? The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.'
Even before the Resurrection, the souls of the dead had an abode where they were consciously in the presence of other souls.
And at the Transfiguration, where did Moses and Elijah come from that they could be seen by Peter, James, and John? If they could talk to Jesus, Moses and Elijah were clearly not bones in a grave!!!
Above all else, how do you make sense of it when Jesus says in Mark 12:26-27 "have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."
In what sense were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob living then? Unless their spirits are alive in heaven, the statement makes no sense - and Jesus always makes sense.
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Originally Posted by MORebelWoman
he can't because it is not in there. It comes from his church and that is all. Even Jesus said that all were dead in the ground.
MORebelWoman, you might want to note that the collection of books known as the Bible comes from that same Church (because how else do you think the canon of scripture was determined, if not through the authority of the Church?) -- and as you can see by the above, looking at that Bible shows that you are wrong.
Jesus had a brother, James, or didn't you know that?! If He had a brother then where do you think His brother came from?
I realize that there may be a problem of reading comprehension here, but please go back and read what I posted again -- and this time try to understand it.
There is no statement in Scripture that Mary had other children. There is only the statement that Jesus had other relatives. Even in modern English, the word "brother" does not mean "the child of the same two parents"; people refer to their half-brothers or step-brothers all the time as their "brothers", even when they have different fathers or different mothers. In the Bible, the word "brother" is used even more broadly to refer to all kinds of relatives. For example, in Genesis 14, Lot is referred to as the "brother" of Abraham, even though he is in fact Abraham's nephew. Before his stoning, Stephen addresses the crowd as "Fathers and brothers", but it is clear they are not all his blood relatives!
As for James, the "brother of the Lord" as Paul calls him, you may also note that in addition to being a relative of Jesus, he is also an "Apostle".
There are two apostles named James.
One is the son of Zebedee.
One is the son of Alphaeus.
There is NO apostle James, however, who is the son of Joseph and Mary.
How are you going to weasel out of that one then? If James is a "brother" of Jesus, and the word "brother" only means "full brother with identical parents", then how is this James one of the Twelve?
Also note that the "sister" of Mary is also named Mary (which would be odd if she were a full blood sister), and that this "sister", who would be Jesus' aunt, is "the mother of James and Joses" -- who are also identified as "brothers" (which obviously means "cousins") of Jesus.
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My oh my people, just think!
I wish some people would think, if only for the nice change it would make.
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There is no biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary.
There is no biblical reason to think that they are, and quite a few biblical reasons to think that they are not -- as I have shown above.
39 And one of the malefactors who was hanged railed against Him, saying, “If thou be Christ, save thyself and us!â€
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, “Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art under the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds. But this Man hath done nothing amiss.â€
42 And he said unto Jesus, “Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy Kingdom.â€
43 And Jesus said unto him, “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.â€
I do not know why you call the mother of Jesus a virgin. She was married and had children. If you believe your church that she stayed a virgin, that is your business. But I believe that she died as every human and not went to Heaven in her own body, that would exclude her from the kingdom. If she changed she has not her old body and when her body went to the grave, you will not find any virgin anymore, believe it or not the virgin is dead. I do not know, if souls in Heaven are called virgins. Mary being an eternal virgin is another myth of the RCC, but her soul is with Jesus and she will come back to earth to receive her new immortal body.
he can't because it is not in there. It comes from his church and that is all. Even Jesus said that all were dead in the ground.
Luke 23:39-43
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
39 And one of the malefactors who was hanged railed against Him, saying, “If thou be Christ, save thyself and us!â€
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, “Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art under the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds. But this Man hath done nothing amiss.â€
42 And he said unto Jesus, “Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy Kingdom.â€
43 And Jesus said unto him, “Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.â€
Enjoy!
Note, how I quoted a Protestant Bible. Now you cannot claim it is an error of a Catholic bible.
Jesus had a brother, James, or didn't you know that?! If He had a brother then where do you think His brother came from? My oh my people, just think! Mary had other children and that is known for a fact.
Jesus’ brothers are mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). The Bible also tells us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples. Galatians 1:19 mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood half-siblings.
There is no biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary. Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical: “But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25). Jesus had half-siblings, half-brothers and half-sisters, who were the children of Joseph and Mary. That is the clear and unambiguous teaching of God’s Word.
Brother or brethren can also be interpret as fellow members of a religious group.
Since you have a phD in theology maybe you can answer these questions:
Is Jesus God?
If Jesus is God then this God had non-divine relatives and they share the same DNA.
Do you think God left descendants on planet Earth?
Where are the descendants of God now?
Last edited by Julian658; 05-08-2014 at 08:40 AM..
The bible does not say how Mary died. It does not say how Paul and Peter were martyred. However, historians knew how Peter and Paul died. During those days the bones of dead martyrs were venerated. No word on the bones of Mary.
I have a question for all of you who believe we are born with/have an immortal soul. A part of us that never dies.
IF ppl are born with an 'eternal soul' [immortal/lives forever] then why was it necessary for Christ to die on the cross to give us eternal life if we of ourselves can live for ever? Kinda redundant isn't it? .....
Then you do not fully understand what sin did to humanity, the relationship between God and man and the demand required by God to correct the barrier for it to be redundant.
Although a sinner Mary was extremely special I believe in the eyes of God. Since we shouldn't really judge anyone perhaps
even ourselves Mary especially being Jesus' mom makes it even more difficult to answer . Suffice it to say we are saved
by believing in the Son of man His grace by faith and Mary historically was a follower of Jesus and a believer so since that
is the salvation message I believe Mary was saved therefore her human body in in her grave her spiritual (heavenly body)
is in heaven. A shared distant "peculation" is that we don't go to heaven until judgment? The rebuttal to that is "absence
from the body presence with the Lord" (but what timeline ie, immediately or judgment?)
Last edited by Inattentive; 05-08-2014 at 10:28 AM..
I know that there is a spiritual world, which is very real, we just cannot see them. But in some circumstances they can manifest, it can be from God or from the kingdom of darkness. Not every spirit is from God. If Mary would appear to me, I would ask her, if Jesus Christ is her Lord, this I would do with every spirit. I just wonder, why so many appearances from Mary and so little from other saints. At least the first pope Peter should appear more often I think. When the real Jesus shows Himself He shows His pierced hands, so He knows that others can come that want to deceive us. In the last days we live in, wrong Christs will come and deceive many. The UFO's and fallen angels are not from God's kingdom.
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