What happens after death, Let's discuss Heaven and Hell!!! (believing, ritual, praying)

[kaykay]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Okay, Kay Kay, but I think when most people think of eternity they thing of something having no beginning or no end. God is eternal, having no beginning and no end.




If the lost are not enemies of God, Kay Kay, what are they then? They are not reconciled to Him and the scriptures speak of us as being enemies of God when we were separated from Him.


What is sin to you, Kay Kay? Do you believe that the lost will be experiencing the result of their sins in this life forever? Wouldn't this mean that sin's power will still be in effect for all of eternity since the lost will remain unreconciled to God due to sin? God bless.

Again, whatever we label the lost I don't think is particularly of any consequence. I just think they are permanently in a "lost state." Yes, in some sense, I do believe that sin's effects will be for all eternity.

And of course, the next argument is doesn't this make Satan more powerful, victorious, fill in the blank than God? No, for whatever purposes God has IMO deemed it important to allow mankind to choose Him or not.

And then comes the argument well, that some people didn't get a "fair shake" in order to choose correctly. Well, to that all I can say is that I trust God in His infinite wisdom to do what's right by them.

(And sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, Shana I'm not being glib about it. It's just that jeffncandace and I have danced "the universalist/non-universalist dance" more than once!)

[ShanaBrown]

Again, whatever we label the lost I don't think is particularly of any consequence. I just think they are permanently in a "lost state." Yes, in some sense, I do believe that sin's effects will be for all eternity.

Hi Kay Kay, I think that it does matter because sinners are described in the scriptures as the enemies of God, but Jesus Christ will subject all to Himself, all of His enemies included and the power, authority, rule of sin and satan will be made of no effect and rendered powerless. This means to me that no one will remain estranged from God, lost, separated, or remain an enemy of God for all of eternity.

And of course, the next argument is doesn't this make Satan more powerful, victorious, fill in the blank than God? No, for whatever purposes God has IMO deemed it important to allow mankind to choose Him or not.

Well I believe that all are lost, held captive, enslaved and are able to choose Him when God chooses the person. For example, Jesus said that no one could come to Him unless the Father drew the person. And He also said that He would draw all men to Himself. He will subject all things to Himself. Colossians 1 speaks of God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself, this referring to something that He intends to do and if He intends to do this and is prevented from doing this due to a blinded man's free will or satan's influence there is something here more powerful than our God. Satan is described as the god of this age. Is the god of this age, one who was created, greater than the Creator? Is evil greater than God, the One who has all truth, knowledge, power? I don't believe that a lost person's free will or satan's influence is greater than the will of God or the power of God.

And then comes the argument well, that some people didn't get a "fair shake" in order to choose correctly. Well, to that all I can say is that I trust God in His infinite wisdom to do what's right by them.

I trust that God in His infinite wisdom, justice, mercy, and agape love will do right also, this being their eventual salvation. But I do understand where you are coming from. Thanks for sharing and God bless.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by spm62

Do you have a retirement account or 401k? If you do then why? Shouldn`t we give all we have to help the poor and needy? Afterall,take care of the now instead of being worried about the future!

No I do not have a pension plan.
I barely have enough to live the way that I live now, but as long as I can do the things I want to do I am not complaining.
And I’m not worried about the future. I live day by day and don't have any long-term plans.

[ShanaBrown]

(And sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, Shana I'm not being glib about it. It's just that jeffncandace and I have danced "the universalist/non-universalist dance" more than once!)

I understand, Kay Kay. I have danced it a few times before too!! but at least here no one has called me or any of us UR's a wolf in sheep's clothing or the devil in disguise...yet (that I know of!!) God bless.

[spm62]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Originally Posted by spm62No I do not have a pension plan.
I barely have enough to live the way that I live now, but as long as I can do the things I want to do I am not complaining.
And I’m not worried about the future. I live day by day and don't have any long-term plans.

I barely have enough as well. Wait a minute,I don`t have enough, who am I kidding. I don`t even have enough to do what I want to do but I`m working toward that end. It can get very tricky if you know what I mean..tricky.

[yhwhshalomjr]

Originally Posted by spm62

Another question I always asked is this...What is the age of accountability..9..10..11..12? Let`s say it is 10. A child dies at the ripe old age of 11. He doesn`t say the sinners prayer. Do you truly believe in your heart of hearts that he will spend forever and ever in a literal hellfire burning with fire and brimstone and tormented day and night without end? That he will be forever separated from the love of God for all of eternity? Do you truly believe that he will suffer forever without end for sins that he committed during that one year on earth where he was held accountable? Just asking..of course I`m asking with love. Just trying to understand how someone reconsile`s that. Thanks

Okay spm62
Maybe this should have been a thread of it's on, because of the complexity of it.
This made it less complex for me; i read through these scriptures and this is my conclusion
29 in this wilderness do your carcases fall, even all your numbered ones, to all your number, from a son of twenty years and upward, who have murmured against Me;
YLT Numbers 14:29
29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me, 30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. 31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
Num 14:29-32 (KJV)
Num 14:29 (YLT)
THE MURMURERS FORBIDDEN TO ENTER THE PROMISED LAND. 14:20-35
The Lord granted the prayer of Moses so far as not at once to destroy the congregation. But disbelief of the promise forbids the benefit. Those who despise the pleasant land shall be shut out of it. The promise of God should be fulfilled to their children. They wished to die in the wilderness; God made their sin their ruin, took them at their word, and their carcases fell in the wilderness. They were made to groan under the burden of their own sin, which was too heavy for them to bear. Ye shall know my breach of promise, both the causes of it, that it is procured by your sin, for God never leaves any till they first leave him; and the consequences of it, that will produce your ruin. But your little ones, now under twenty years old, which ye, in your unbelief, said should be a prey, them will I bring in. God will let them know that he can put a difference between the guilty and the innocent, and cut them off without touching their children. Thus God would not utterly take away his loving kindness.
—Matthew Henry Concise
This is the definition of a child according to the Bible.
So it sounds like the age is 20 according to this passage of scripture, even if one younger child wanted to accept Christ as their personal saviour, that sounds like it would be "a good plan". also. I believe for salvation God bar none. Also IMO God will not hold children responsible under this age, for eternal judgement and damnation via "lake of fire" that is.
Another passage is
38 But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. 39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. 40 But as for you, turn you, and take your journey into the wilderness by the way of the Red sea.
Deut 1:38-40 (KJV)

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Isaiah 7:15-16 (KJV)
This is my take on it.
God Bless You

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by spm62

It can get very tricky if you know what I mean..tricky.

My trick is to only want the things I truly need.
I guess I don't need to be financially rich or secure to be happy.
The only aim that I have left in life is to die the way that I've lived; content.

[spm62]

Can someone who believes in eternal hellfire and damnation please give me their opinion concerning Adam`s all and Jesus`s all that I posted earlier?When Jesus says he is the savior of all men,why you don`t believe that? John 12:32 Jesus said...If I be lifted up from the earth,will draw all men unto me. How many men..all. Did he say some will be drawn to me..no..he said all. All is all no matter how you slice it,dice it, splice it, or ice it. God has gone out of his way in the scripture to tell us that Jesus is the saviour of all men. That is how much he loves us. We just want to believe that somehow we can of our own free will circumvent God`s plan. We just can`t admit that we don`t have free will in this matter. We think we have to have it our way. Thank God we don`t. Because if we had it our way we would all be going to hell in a fairly sized handbasket. We only come to God because he opens our eyes to his truth. We don`t open our own eyes. The bible makes it clear that man left to his own devices or free will would never choose God. Oh, we like to think that we are more discerning than our neighbor. We found God and if only our friend was as smart as we are or as discerning as we are or could open his eyes like we have..we ,we we. We haven`t done anything. We don`t deserve anything. God is the one who opens eyes and hearts. The bible says that none seeketh after God. God does the seeking He does the seeking,saving,and sactifying and somehow we want to take partial credit. Well, yes, Jesus died on the cross but I had to be discerning enough to accept it..blah blah blah. You did nothing but turn away from God just like me and everyone else. That`s why He sent his son to be brutally beaten and killed because he loved us that much. He knew we didn`t want him and we would be separated from him left to our free will. We wouldn`t know or accept the truth because we were blinded by our own sinful ways. The only way we could know and understand the truth is if he supernaturally opened our eyes to it. That is what he wants to do and once he has then we can see his love for us and we long to be with him. That is the only way. He has to do it or it won`t be done. By the way,this isn`t meant for anyone in particular..I was ranting..with love of course! O.K. ? Alright I`m done..love ya

[kaykay]

Originally Posted by spm62

Can someone who believes in eternal hellfire and damnation please give me their opinion concerning Adam`s all and Jesus`s all that I posted earlier?When Jesus says he is the savior of all men,why you don`t believe that? John 12:32 Jesus said...If I be lifted up from the earth,will draw all men unto me. How many men..all. Did he say some will be drawn to me..no..he said all. All is all no matter how you slice it,dice it, splice it, or ice it. God has gone out of his way in the scripture to tell us that Jesus is the saviour of all men. That is how much he loves us. We just want to believe that somehow we can of our own free will circumvent God`s plan. We just can`t admit that we don`t have free will in this matter. We think we have to have it our way. Thank God we don`t. Because if we had it our way we would all be going to hell in a fairly sized handbasket. We only come to God because he opens our eyes to his truth. We don`t open our own eyes. The bible makes it clear that man left to his own devices or free will would never choose God. Oh, we like to think that we are more discerning than our neighbor. We found God and if only our friend was as smart as we are or as discerning as we are or could open his eyes like we have..we ,we we. We haven`t done anything. We don`t deserve anything. God is the one who opens eyes and hearts. The bible says that none seeketh after God. God does the seeking He does the seeking,saving,and sactifying and somehow we want to take partial credit. Well, yes, Jesus died on the cross but I had to be discerning enough to accept it..blah blah blah. You did nothing but turn away from God just like me and everyone else. That`s why He sent his son to be brutally beaten and killed because he loved us that much. He knew we didn`t want him and we would be separated from him left to our free will. We wouldn`t know or accept the truth because we were blinded by our own sinful ways. The only way we could know and understand the truth is if he supernaturally opened our eyes to it. That is what he wants to do and once he has then we can see his love for us and we long to be with him. That is the only way. He has to do it or it won`t be done. By the way,this isn`t meant for anyone in particular..I was ranting..with love of course! O.K. ? Alright I`m done..love ya

In a nutshell, Jesus died for ALL. The other "alls" are potential depending on yes, their decision. (That's my rant! I'm done now too!)

[ShanaBrown]

Well, what I would like to know is how can someone who is blinded and held captive make a true informed decision? Now, you know I am not finished ranting yet God bless.