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He is now a stay at home dad with three kids, I guess that takes up all of his time, it would mine!
He was on over the Thanksgiving Holiday.
Wish he could have joined in this discussion. But I`m sure it will come up again when somebody new comes along. I hope so anyway. I`m always happy to tell people about the love and goodness of God. How he is the savior of all men and how he will not be defeated by satan!
Wish he could have joined in this discussion. But I`m sure it will come up again when somebody new comes along. I hope so anyway. I`m always happy to tell people about the love and goodness of God. How he is the savior of all men and how he will not be defeated by satan!
I know what you mean, and I agree He is not defeated by satan, Jesus defeated him at the cross.
I knew this thread would be a very interesting one. First of all let me start with this scripture: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14)
The truth of the matter is that everyone that says they are saved, are not really saved. "Not every onte that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils/ and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them. I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-22)
Jesus talked about people that outwardly appeared to be righteous, but inwardly were dead. They had not root. You can not say you are saved, and your fruits do not meet for repentance. "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:33)
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement;
And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked; (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." (2 Peter 2:4-9)
God never created Hell for us, it was created for the devil and the fallen angels. But when Adam sinned in the garden of Eden, that is when sin enter the world. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2Peter 3:9) "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home-these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on that great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 1:6-7)
Hell is a holding place until the dead (unsaved) are casted into the lake of fire. "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. (When you don't except Christ as personal Lord and Savior, every sin you committ is recorded in heaven. When you accept Christ as personal Lord and Savior, God keeps no record of you sins, he looks at us and sees Christ) The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had don. Then death and Hades(Hell) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:11-15)
I know what you mean, and I agree He is not defeated by satan, Jesus defeated him at the cross.
Then why will he take 99% of Gods creation to hell with him? One (Jesus) gets 1% and the other (satan) gets 99% but Jesus is victorious? Now come on...don`t be stubborn..you know that doesn`t make sense. Just asking..LOL He will not be totally defeated until Jesus makes all of his enemies his footstool. That hasn`t happened yet. Also ,he can`t be defeated yet because people are still suffering and dying. That doesn`t sound like defeated to me....but he will be.
On the one hand, I feel strange arguing FOR the existence of an eternal hell.
On the other, I feel ashamed not to speak about what the Bible says regarding this issue.
Do universalists equally translate the words normally translated for eternal and eternity?
Is that same word, when used about God, interpreted the same way?
Will my time in Heaven be temporary too?
What about all these 'all men' phrases that I keep seeing bolded in these posts?
When Jesus said "All men will hate you because of me." Was He lying? Has there ever been a single soul that can say they were hated by 'all men'?
John 1:7 says that John the Baptist came to preach about Jesus so that all men might believe.
I quoted you a verse that showed that Jesus was specifically asked "Will few be saved?" and His answer was "Yes". Now you can tell me what you think that means, you can spend a dozen posts mis-translating and twisting Christ's words, but you can't change that simple question with that simple answer into anything else and be biblically correct.
Universalists have consistently tied God and His success to man and his choices. You say "If Satan deceives more souls than God wins, then God is a loser."
Sorry. That's a man-centered view of the Kingdom of God.
God's success is right now...current...and complete. He is God. And God's success is not dependent on me. He's quite able to be a Sovereign God w/o any contribution from me.
We are 'predestined', but I don't mean that in the way traditionally thought of. God has a predetermined (predestined) PERFECT will for our lives, and He gives us the option through free-will to walk in that PERFECT will or to walk in our ways, which then makes us in an IMPERFECT place. My sin, bad choices, rejection and rebellion isn't some lame reflection on God, it's a damning reflection on me. It doesn't mean Adam's blood is more powerful than Jesus'. It means I'm more interested in walking in the sin brought on by Adam than the redemption paid for by Christ.
I've seen you guys argue "what about those that have never heard? What about children? What's the age of accountability? etc" and to that I say I serve a just God. A God that will condemn no man unjustly. The 4 yr old or the 94 yr old....each answers to their own ability. it's different for everyone...but it's there for everyone.
I don't get it.
This doctrine is one for itchy ears. It sounds good, feels good, tastes good and looks good.
That's usually NOT a good indication that something is good.....
On the one hand, I feel strange arguing FOR the existence of an eternal hell.
On the other, I feel ashamed not to speak about what the Bible says regarding this issue.
Do universalists equally translate the words normally translated for eternal and eternity?
Is that same word, when used about God, interpreted the same way?
Will my time in Heaven be temporary too?
What about all these 'all men' phrases that I keep seeing bolded in these posts?
When Jesus said "All men will hate you because of me." Was He lying? Has there ever been a single soul that can say they were hated by 'all men'?
John 1:7 says that John the Baptist came to preach about Jesus so that all men might believe.
I quoted you a verse that showed that Jesus was specifically asked "Will few be saved?" and His answer was "Yes". Now you can tell me what you think that means, you can spend a dozen posts mis-translating and twisting Christ's words, but you can't change that simple question with that simple answer into anything else and be biblically correct.
Universalists have consistently tied God and His success to man and his choices. You say "If Satan deceives more souls than God wins, then God is a loser."
Sorry. That's a man-centered view of the Kingdom of God.
God's success is right now...current...and complete. He is God. And God's success is not dependent on me. He's quite able to be a Sovereign God w/o any contribution from me.
We are 'predestined', but I don't mean that in the way traditionally thought of. God has a predetermined (predestined) PERFECT will for our lives, and He gives us the option through free-will to walk in that PERFECT will or to walk in our ways, which then makes us in an IMPERFECT place. My sin, bad choices, rejection and rebellion isn't some lame reflection on God, it's a damning reflection on me. It doesn't mean Adam's blood is more powerful than Jesus'. It means I'm more interested in walking in the sin brought on by Adam than the redemption paid for by Christ.
I've seen you guys argue "what about those that have never heard? What about children? What's the age of accountability? etc" and to that I say I serve a just God. A God that will condemn no man unjustly. The 4 yr old or the 94 yr old....each answers to their own ability. it's different for everyone...but it's there for everyone.
I don't get it.
This doctrine is one for itchy ears. It sounds good, feels good, tastes good and looks good.
That's usually NOT a good indication that something is good.....
Alpha, I understand that is what you believe. You are entitled to your opinion. Just as I am.No one is condeming you for having an opinion. But that is all it is my friend,your opinion, That is how you personally interpret scripture. You criticize someone who believes God is in control of his creation.But I believe your doctrine is ego centered and for itchy ears. You so desperately want to believe that you had something to do with your salvation when scripture clearly states that you did not. You did not accept Jesus of your own free will. You are giving man too much credit. You would not,could not accept Christ of your own free will. None of us would. That would make you, at the very least ,smarter than some or more discerning than some.When someone points out scripture or scenarios that show how weak and self centered man`s.. I chose God doctrine is..you`re response is well, I don`t know but I know God is just. I do too but I also know he is loving and merciful. Thank God he is judge and not man. Some men are so quick to want to throw anyone who doesn`t subscribe to their doctrine into hellfire and torment.You mentioned Adam but you do not understand the comparison God made and possibly in ignorance you do give a created being (Adam) more power than God whether you realize it or not. But I know there is nothing anyone can say to make you see the real love of God. You`re more interested in telling people they are going to burn forever in hellfire unless they believe as you do. Only the holy Spirit can open your eyes to his truth and not to the doctrines that self serving man has taught you. We have all stated that there is a hell, we have all stated there will be punishment.I punish my children but I do not torment them everyday. God loves them more than I do.Please don`t give me that line about how God doesn`t send anyone to hell,we send ourselves there. Man says that because he is egotistical,thinking he has the will and the power to do anything concerning his destiny. You said universalist tie God`s success to man..quite the opposite. That is what people who subscribe to man`s free will doctrine do. God`s success hinges on the choice that you as a man make. That is what you believe. I believe it is all up to God..not me. He made me and he can do what he wants. He is the potter, I am the clay. Read Job sometime and see what God said to him. Where were you when he laid the foundations of the world? Job understood that God was in control.That is what it comes down too. Ego..pride. Man wants to believe he is in control. But whether we like it or not,whether we admit it or not,God is in control. Not you,not me,not any created being. Gods will shall be done and man,no matter how ego driven and prideful he may be,is powerless to stop it. So thank God for his mercy and thank him that he opened your eyes to salvation because he opened them for you,you didn`t open them on your own. Jesus said,,when I be lifted up I will draw all men to myself. To use your phraseology...no amount of mens twisting,turning,and distorting can change that beautiful truth...thank God.
Alpha, I understand that is what you believe. You are entitled to your opinion. Just as I am.No one is condeming you for having an opinion. But that is all it is my friend,your opinion, That is how you personally interpret scripture.
Thank you for not condemning me, I appreciate that. But it's really not just MY opinion or how I personally interpret scripture. It's a very widely held belief based on the study of biblical scholars both contemporary and from the past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
You criticize someone who believes God is in control of his creation.But I believe your doctrine is ego centered and for itchy ears. You so desperately want to believe that you had something to do with your salvation when scripture clearly states that you did not. You did not accept Jesus of your own free will. You are giving man too much credit. You would not,could not accept Christ of your own free will. None of us would.
Sorry. I don't see that in scripture. Yes, God choose me. God chooses everyone. He doesn't want anyone to perish...er...I guess you don't believe the perish part of that verse either...hmmm...well... anyway, He doesn't want anyone to perish and He absolutely chooses us all. Whether we respond to that choosing is our decision. God doesn't force Himself on anyone. That's why the bible says IF you believe and IF you confess...not WHEN you believe and WHEN you confess (Rom 10).
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
That would make you, at the very least ,smarter than some or more discerning than some.When someone points out scripture or scenarios that show how weak and self centered man`s.. I chose God doctrine is..you`re response is well, I don`t know but I know God is just. I do too but I also know he is loving and merciful. Thank God he is judge and not man.
Man is weak and self-centered, but also man can be broken enough to realize their need for a Savior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
Some men are so quick to want to throw anyone who doesn't subscribe to their doctrine into hellfire and torment.You mentioned Adam but you do not understand the comparison God made and possibly in ignorance you do give a created being (Adam) more power than God whether you realize it or not.
Yes, I'm ignorant....still reading....
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
But I know there is nothing anyone can say to make you see the real love of God. You`re more interested in telling people they are going to burn forever in hellfire unless they believe as you do.
So now I'm ignorant, can't see the real love of God and I'm "more interested in telling people they are going to burn forever in hellfire unless they believe as I do." Quote me, please. I'm begging you. Please, quote me. You've just accused me of something that I'd like you to back up or withdraw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
Only the holy Spirit can open your eyes to his truth and not to the doctrines that self serving man has taught you. We have all stated that there is a hell, we have all stated there will be punishment.I punish my children but I do not torment them everyday. God loves them more than I do.Please don`t give me that line about how God doesn`t send anyone to hell,we send ourselves there.
I haven't (purposely) given you any lines, spm62. I've tried to show you where the Lord Jesus Christ was asked about this very same subject and then I've shown you what the Lord Jesus Christ said about the subject. You want to call that "doctrines that self serving man has taught you", that's fine. I hope discernment will win in the eyes of those truly reading my posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
Man says that because he is egotistical,thinking he has the will and the power to do anything concerning his destiny. You said universalist tie God`s success to man..quite the opposite. That is what people who subscribe to man`s free will doctrine do.
I'm just basing my comments on what I've read here. Universalists say that IF my beliefs are accurate, then God is a loser. That is tying God's success to man's decision, I wish you could see that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
God`s success hinges on the choice that you as a man make. That is what you believe.
No, I said God's success isn't tied to me at all. Please read my posts a little more thoroughly. Here, let me help "God's success is right now...current...and complete. He is God. And God's success is not dependent on me. He's quite able to be a Sovereign God w/o any contribution from me." That's what I said right here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
I believe it is all up to God..not me. He made me and he can do what he wants. He is the potter, I am the clay. Read Job sometime and see what God said to him. Where were you when he laid the foundations of the world? Job understood that God was in control.That is what it comes down too. Ego..pride. Man wants to believe he is in control. But whether we like it or not,whether we admit it or not,God is in control. Not you,not me,not any created being. Gods will shall be done and man,no matter how ego driven and prideful he may be,is powerless to stop it. So thank God for his mercy and thank him that he opened your eyes to salvation because he opened them for you,you didn`t open them on your own. Jesus said,,when I be lifted up I will draw all men to myself.
The correlation and reconciliation of the Sovereignty of God and free-will is one of the most difficult things to understand. They seem very counter. They are both important and work together, not separately. What you say above is that you really aren't even responsible for your own sin because hey "it is all up to God..not me. He made me and he can do what he wants......whether we like it or not,whether we admit it or not,God is in control. Not you,not me,not any created being. Gods will shall be done and man,no matter how ego driven and prideful he may be,is powerless to stop it."
Admittedly, there's much regarding the Kingdom of God that I don't understand. Fortunately, I'm instructed not to lean on my own understanding and that God's ways are as much above mine as the Heavens are from the earth. If this little old brain could figure out God, He wouldn't be much of a God.
I do thank God for my salvation, that free gift, though. I do thank Him for mercy and forgiveness, as well. But I thank him for much more than that too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
To use your phraseology...no amount of mens twisting,turning,and distorting can change that beautiful truth...thank God.
Thank you for not condemning me, I appreciate that. But it's really not just MY opinion or how I personally interpret scripture. It's a very widely held belief based on the study of biblical scholars both contemporary and from the past.
Quote:
I, never said you were the only one to have that interpretation now did I? What I did say was, it is your interpretation, your opinion. Not that you were the only one to have that opinion. See the difference?
Sorry. I don't see that in scripture. Yes, God choose me. God chooses everyone. He doesn't want anyone to perish...er...I guess you don't believe the perish part of that verse either...hmmm...well... anyway, He doesn't want anyone to perish and He absolutely chooses us all. Whether we respond to that choosing is our decision. God doesn't force Himself on anyone. That's why the bible says IF you believe and IF you confess...not WHEN you believe and WHEN you confess (Rom 10).
Quote:
I guess you don`t believe the perish part of that verse.Don`t you believe in eternal hellfire? I believe he doesn`t want anyone to perish so they won`t. You say God chooses all...but doesn`t he say many are called but few are chosen Few is a lot different than all..isn`t it?
Man is weak and self-centered, but also man can be broken enough to realize their need for a Savior.
I agree[/quote]
Yes, I'm ignorant....still reading....
So now I'm ignorant, can't see the real love of God and I'm "more interested in telling people they are going to burn forever in hellfire unless they believe as I do." Quote me, please. I'm begging you. Please, quote me. You've just accused me of something that I'd like you to back up or withdraw.
Quote:
Perhaps I stand corrected. But don`t you believe in eternal hellfire? So anyone who doesn`t believe in Jesus as you do is eternally damned..right? If God has opened your eyes to his truth about what we label as universalism,then I apologize.I thought that was the whole reason for your previous post. I`m glad you have see the light..lol
I haven't (purposely) given you any lines, spm62. I've tried to show you where the Lord Jesus Christ was asked about this very same subject and then I've shown you what the Lord Jesus Christ said about the subject. You want to call that "doctrines that self serving man has taught you", that's fine. I hope discernment will win in the eyes of those truly reading my posts.
Quote:
That is my whole reason for posting. To show people they don`t have to be scared of God. He loves them like the loving father he is. He is not going to throw them or perhaps one of their loved ones, who has already died and didn`t know the truth, into some fiery pit hole to suffer and burn forever without ceasing. They maybe punished or disciplined for a time but he is a God of discipline but also of love and mercy. Just a like a loving father should be.
I'm just basing my comments on what I've read here. Universalists say that IF my beliefs are accurate, then God is a loser. That is tying God's success to man's decision, I wish you could see that.
Quote:
Please read what you just wrote. If whose beliefs are corrects..yours. But that is the point,we do not believe your beliefs are correct,so God is not a loser. You believe your beliefs are correct..I think You are the one tying Gods success to man. He has to wait on man and see what he will choose..right? You believe it`s up to man to choose God or accept him. So whether he is victorious or not depends on your decision. I believe it is not up to man, I thought I`ve made that pretty clear.Sorry if I didn`t.
No, I said God's success isn't tied to me at all. Please read my posts a little more thoroughly. Here, let me help "God's success is right now...current...and complete. He is God. And God's success is not dependent on me. He's quite able to be a Sovereign God w/o any contribution from me." That's what I said right here.
Quote:
But you also said it is up to you to choose God,he will not force himself on you. So if everybody in the world made the free will decision to not choose God then no one would go to heaven. God would be there all alone with the angels. So would his creation be a success? I guess it depends on how you define success. God created everything but left it up to man to decide. Man chooses not to obey,sides with satan and goes to hell with satan forever. So satan deceived the world and all of Gods creation and took it to hell,but God was successful....alrighty then!
The correlation and reconciliation of the Sovereignty of God and free-will is one of the most difficult things to understand. They seem very counter. They are both important and work together, not separately. What you say above is that you really aren't even responsible for your own sin because hey "it is all up to God..not me. He made me and he can do what he wants......whether we like it or not,whether we admit it or not,God is in control. Not you,not me,not any created being. Gods will shall be done and man,no matter how ego driven and prideful he may be,is powerless to stop it."
Quote:
You fail to understand alpha. You need to read some of my post. Man is full of sin. The bible says there are none righteous,no not one. O.K. So man is responsible for his sin. We are not deserving of God`s presence. So,God does the changing in us because he loves us that much. Poor wretched soul that I am.So, I am at fault for my actions and I cannot change myself. Did you catch that. God does it..it is up to him to do it. It is like if 5 people were drowning in a lake. You reach out and say..take my hand and I`ll pull you out. But everyone says no, they don`t realize they are even drowning. So in your compassion you reach down and pull them out. Once they saw that they were drowning and you saved them they felt humbled and loved you because you loved them. Do you see? We are drowning and we are responsible for being in the lake and we don`t want God,but he loves us that much to save us Alpha. Can you see? God loves us in spite of ourselves. I am so moved just thinking about that love as I write this.
Admittedly, there's much regarding the Kingdom of God that I don't understand. Fortunately, I'm instructed not to lean on my own understanding and that God's ways are as much above mine as the Heavens are from the earth. If this little old brain could figure out God, He wouldn't be much of a God.
I do thank God for my salvation, that free gift, though. I do thank Him for mercy and forgiveness, as well. But I thank him for much more than that too.
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With this we agree. I thank him too. Thank God for his grace and mercy. Where would we be without it. I don`t want to think about it.
Why not try thinking 'both/and' instead of 'either/or' in regards to your quote above?
I like to be sure that when I do good, I do good because it is good to do good. I do not want to find out later that I only did good because I had an ulterior motive (like getting into heaven). So when I help people I want to be sure that I truly want to help THEM, instead of only MYSELF.
I also find it childish to only reward people when they act the way you want them to. This would mean that God could be either good or evil.
And I'd like to believe that God=Love, so can only be good and not evil, or good and evil.
I also do not fear God. To me God=Love; why should I ever fear love?
So I also do not do good out of fear for God.
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Now come on...don`t be stubborn..you know that doesn`t make sense. Just asking..LOL
He will not be totally defeated until Jesus makes all of his enemies his footstool. That hasn`t happened yet. Also ,he can`t be defeated yet because people are still suffering and dying. That doesn`t sound like defeated to me....but he will be.
I like to be sure that when I do good, I do good because it is good to do good. I do not want to find out later that I only did good because I had an ulterior motive (like getting into heaven). So when I help people I want to be sure that I truly want to help THEM, instead of only MYSELF.
