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I disagree with what the orthodox fundamentalists have made of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
For instance, the Atonement has been made int"no acceptable mechanism for atonement but Penal Substitution."
But the main thing to me is that they have made these positions actually secondary to the message of the Way of life taught by Jesus: that what we believe about Jesus is more important than how we live it out.
I think you meant to say something like this: "But the main thing to me is that they have made these positions actually more important than the message of the Way of life taught by Jesus: that what we believe about Jesus is more important than how we live it out."
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
That too, and many others things, making that which testifies of the Christ of no effect.
Amen. They have taken the Gospel of love and Christ's commandments to "love God and each other" . . . and made them irrelevant to believing the right things ABOUT Christ and God . . . which is absurd!!! We humans are a perverse lot, indeed! I do realize the "believing" is easier to do than the loving . . . hence the term "easy believism."
Do we NEED it . . . No. But is it useful to look at what Jesus has actually become and done in human history even thousands of years after His death??? . . . I think so. If anyone like Isaiah (some 800 years or more before He was even born) knew what He would become and do in human history . . . I think that would have some probative value. Don't you? Let's take a look. Remember expecting specificity in the inspired interpretations of a primitive outlining our species SPIRITUAL evolution over such a vast time span would be ludicrous. But I think the highlights are sufficiently informing:
From Isaiah 52:15
. . . He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: For they to whom it was not told of him, have seen; and they that heard not, have beheld. [The entire European continent of nations (and their kings) would seem to validate this prophesy about Christ.]
From Isaiah 55:4
. . . Behold I have given him for a witness to the people, for a leader and master of the gentiles. [The numerous "Gentile" religions based on Christ certainly validates this prophesy.]
From Isaiah 55:5
. . . Behold thou shalt call a nation which thou knewest not; and the nations that knew not thee shall run to thee, because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for he hath glorified thee. [The creation of the nation of Israel out of Palestine in 1948 by the "Gentiles" certainly validates this prophesy . . . though skeptics will say it is self-fulfilling]
From Isaiah 60:1
. . . Arise, be enlightened, O Jerusalem: For thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee . . . And the Gentiles shall walk in thy light . . . Then shalt thou see and abound, and thy heart shall wonder and be enlarged, when the multitude of the sea shall be converted to thee, the strength of the Gentiles shall come to thee.[The continued and significant support of the nation of Israel by the "strength" of the United States and other "Gentile" nations seems to cover this one.]
Of course the NT also provides useful indicators of Christ's extraordinary accomplishment throughout human history.
From Matthew 21:42
. . . Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, has become the corner stone; by the Lord this has been done, and it is wonderful in our eyes?' [Clearly the Jews are the “builders” who rejected Jesus who has, in more ways than one, become the cornerstone!]
From Matthew 24:14
. . . and the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a witness to all nations. [My guess is we are pretty close to this already, or at least it seems so.]
Jesus was something if for no other reason than to be able to manipulate human history after His death for thousands of years into the future to fit the predicted spiritual template.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Honestly, I could go with the verses Jesus said about Himself being legitimate prophecies. But the others just so cryptic and vague as to be applicable to just about anybody.
Not really, Thrill. Who else in human history fits all those particular descriptions? Sometimes we just have to accept that our reality is more fantastic than our imaginations. How on earth could Jesus have made human history conform to Him AFTER His death???
Christians have to get away from this idea that Jesus' death was a blood atonement. Jesus never once in Mark's gospel, the most accurate gospel we have, uses either blood or atonement in describing His death, either alone or combined. Jesus specifically spoke only about his death. He never once mentioned anything to the effect that His blood would be an atonement to appease God's wrath (that came much later as the Jesus legend and theology grew and developed). Jesus described the capacity of His death only once that I am aware when He said,
All this stuff about blood atonement and appeasing God's wrath against sinners came during the medieval Age and Reformation. Paul started polluting the doctrine when he and John started using words like propitiation and substitution and atonement instead of just sticking with Jesus own language to describe the nature of His death, that being a "ransom" pure and simple. Once men started dragging their own theologies and terminologies into the soup that's when Christianity started to derail big-time and has been off the tracks ever since.
What about Mark 14:22?
Mark 14:22-25 As they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread and asked God's blessing on it. Then he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples, saying, "Take it, for this is my body." And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. And he said to them, "This is my blood, poured out for many, sealing the covenant between God and his people. I solemnly declare that I will not drink wine again until that day when I drink it new in the Kingdom of God."
Do we NEED it . . . No. But is it useful to look at what Jesus has actually become and done in human history even thousands of years after His death??? . . . I think so. If anyone like Isaiah (some 800 years or more before He was even born) knew what He would become and do in human history . . . I think that would have some probative value. Don't you? Let's take a look. Remember expecting specificity in the inspired interpretations of a primitive outlining our species SPIRITUAL evolution over such a vast time span would be ludicrous. But I think the highlights that are sufficiently informing:
From Isaiah 52:15
. . . He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: For they to whom it was not told of him, have seen; and they that heard not, have beheld. [The entire European continent of nations (and their kings) would seem to validate this prophesy about Christ.]
From Isaiah 55:4
. . . Behold I have given him for a witness to the people, for a leader and master of the gentiles. [The numerous "Gentile" religions based on Christ certainly validates this prophesy.]
From Isaiah 55:5
. . . Behold thou shalt call a nation which thou knewest not; and the nations that knew not thee shall run to thee, because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for he hath glorified thee. [The creation of the nation of Israel out of Palestine in 1948 by the "Gentiles" certainly validates this prophesy . . . though skeptics will say it is self-fulfilling]
From Isaiah 60:1
. . . Arise, be enlightened, O Jerusalem: For thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee . . . And the Gentiles shall walk in thy light . . . Then shalt thou see and abound, and thy heart shall wonder and be enlarged, when the multitude of the sea shall be converted to thee, the strength of the Gentiles shall come to thee.[The continued and significant support of the nation of Israel by the "strength" of the United States and other "Gentile" nations seems to cover this one.]
Of course the NT also provides useful indicators of Christ's extraordinary accomplishment throughout human history.
From Matthew 21:42
. . . Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, has become the corner stone; by the Lord this has been done, and it is wonderful in our eyes?' [Clearly the Jews are the “builders” who rejected Jesus who has, in more ways than one, become the cornerstone!]
From Matthew 24:14
. . . and the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a witness to all nations. [My guess is we are pretty close to this already, or at least it seems so.]
Jesus was something if for no other reason than to be able to manipulate human history after His death for thousands of years into the future to fit the predicted spiritual template.
What a tremendous verse Isiaiah 60:1 is. Thy light is come, yet if the bible is the light tben the light was already here. I would prefer to believe what the scripture testifies of................. Jesus Christ the Light of the world, and what is more he is the Light of our individual worlds.
Christians have to get away from this idea that Jesus' death was a blood atonement. Jesus never once in Mark's gospel, the most accurate gospel we have, uses either blood or atonement in describing His death, either alone or combined. Jesus specifically spoke only about his death. He never once mentioned anything to the effect that His blood would be an atonement to appease God's wrath (that came much later as the Jesus legend and theology grew and developed). Jesus described the capacity of His death only once that I am aware when He said,
All this stuff about blood atonement and appeasing God's wrath against sinners came during the medieval Age and Reformation. Paul started polluting the doctrine when he and John started using words like propitiation and substitution and atonement instead of just sticking with Jesus own language to describe the nature of His death, that being a "ransom" pure and simple. Once men started dragging their own theologies and terminologies into the soup that's when Christianity started to derail big-time and has been off the tracks ever since.
Actually, terms such as 'atonement' and 'propitiation' go back to the Old Testament. The major sacrifice of the year in Israel's animal sacrificial system which was instituted by God, and which was a type or picture of the work of Jesus Christ on the cross was the 'Day of Atonement' which was performed once a year. The purpose and details of the Day of Atonement can be read here; The Day of Atonement.
The Greek word translated as Propitiation in Romans 3:25 is hilastérion. But hilastérion is also translated as 'mercy seat' in Hebrews 9:5.
Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25] whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation (hilastérion) in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Hebrews 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2] For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place. 3] Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4] having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5] and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat (hilastérion); but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
The mercy seat was the lid on the Ark of the Covenant which was in the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle. Once a year on the Day of Atonement the High Priest would enter into the Holy of Holies with a bowl of the blood of a bullock for his own sins, and then the blood of a sacrificial goat for the sins of the people of Israel. He would sprinkle the blood on the top of the mercy seat as per Leviticus 16:14-17. God's righteousness and justice, represented by the two cherubim on the ark looked down and saw the blood of an innocent animal (representing Jesus Christ on the cross) that has been slain at the brazen alter (which represented the cross) and was satisfied or propitiated.
In Romans 3:25 'blood' refers to the propitiatory work of Jesus on the cross which satisfied or propitiated God the Father as per Isaiah 53:11.
Just as the innocent goat was the substitute in the Day of Atonement to cover Israel's sins (but only for one year), Jesus was the innocent sacrifice which took away the sins of the world for all time (Hebrews 10:1-14).
So no. Christians do not need to get away from the fact that Jesus' death was a blood atonement. The blood of Christ refers not to His literal blood, but to His redemptive work on the cross. There is no excuse for Christians not to understand that.
John records in the Revelation given to him by Jesus hearing the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders sing a song. The song was this.
Revelation 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9] And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-03-2014 at 05:52 PM..
Christians have to get away from this idea that Jesus' death was a blood atonement. Jesus never once in Mark's gospel, the most accurate gospel we have, uses either blood or atonement in describing His death, either alone or combined. Jesus specifically spoke only about his death. He never once mentioned anything to the effect that His blood would be an atonement to appease God's wrath (that came much later as the Jesus legend and theology grew and developed). Jesus described the capacity of His death only once that I am aware when He said, .
I guess I'd better contact Peter G. Bolt wrote a book entitled, The Cross from a Distance. Atonement in Mark’s Gospel (New Studies in Biblical Theology 18; Leicester: Apollos; Downers Grove: Intervarsity, 2004).
Quote:
In his book Mr. Bolt looks at why the cross is so prominent in Mark’s narrative and asks what contribution Mark’s teaching can make to our understanding of the atonement. The first overt reference to the cross in Mark is Jesus’ parable about the bridegroom who will be taken away (2:19-20). His death will bring ‘the abolition of religion’ and requires faith in the plan of God and the person of Jesus. Mark’s central narrative section (8:27 – 10:52) is divided into three sub-sections, each introduced by a prediction of Jesus death and resurrection (8:31; 9:31; 10:32-34). Although these sayings have important implications for discipleship, they essentially function to explain the necessity of the cross from a soteriological point of view.
Yom Kippur, The Day of Atonement is one of if not the most important Jewish Holidays. While the word atonement is a made up word it fits what it was made up to describe perfectly. Jewish theology taught that God's glory lived in the midst of Israel in the back of the Temple. Being holy, God was unable to stand the "pollution" caused by sin and death. Kipper means cleansing or purging of sin. This cleansing of the Temple was needed to keep God living there. In 586 B.C.E God left from the Temple and the Temple was destroyed. Atonement to God is serious.
While the temple sacrifices made the Temple clean so God would remain, Jesus sacrifice made us clean so we could stand before Him.
Not really, Thrill. Who else in human history fits all those particular descriptions? Sometimes we just have to accept that our reality is more fantastic than our imaginations. How on earth could Jesus have made human history conform to Him AFTER His death???
Here's the acid test, Mystic: if you did not know who Jesus was would you know that these were prophecies about the Messiah? On the other hand, knowing what you know about Jesus, how much does this color your interpretations of the Old Testament passages?
Mark 14:22-25 As they were eating, Jesus took a loaf of bread and asked God's blessing on it. Then he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples, saying, "Take it, for this is my body." And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. And he said to them, "This is my blood, poured out for many, sealing the covenant between God and his people. I solemnly declare that I will not drink wine again until that day when I drink it new in the Kingdom of God."
That's a good catch, JJ. I'm going to have to think about that one.
Not really, Thrill. Who else in human history fits all those particular descriptions? Sometimes we just have to accept that our reality is more fantastic than our imaginations. How on earth could Jesus have made human history conform to Him AFTER His death???
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Here's the acid test, Mystic: if you did not know who Jesus was would you know that these were prophecies about the Messiah? On the other hand, knowing what you know about Jesus, how much does this color your interpretations of the Old Testament passages?
you are not following the logic. What are the probabilities that Jesus would match the prophecies (and there are more) that were generated within the very religion from which He emerged over so long a time span AFTER His death. It could be argued (and it has been) That He and His followers hatched a Passover Plot to fulfill prophesies in the OT. That would account for the time He was alive. How do we account for His extended impact over thousands of years of human history? It simply defies logic.
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Good catch
