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Fundamentalists/Evangelicals are fond of saying that Jesus fulfilled over 300 "prophecies" in the Old Testament. Did He really? Let's look:
1. Was Jesus ever at any time in His life called "Immanuel" either by name or reference? In order for this prophecy to be fulfilled someone would have to, at some time in Jesus' life, refer to Him as "Immanuel" to fulfill the prophecy. No record exists this was ever done. Fail.
2. Isaiah 7:16 is a reference to Jesus according to early clergy
Quote:
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken. (NASB) Is. 7:14-16
How do apologists explain that Israel was still intact 400 years before Jesus was born right up until 70 AD? Well, apparently some say that Israel was "destroyed" when the two halves, Judah and Israel, split apart right after Solomon's death, but this occurred roughly 400 years before Isaiah even gave the prophecy, in 922 BC. Other apologists, scrambling to find any two kings in Israel's history that might involve some kind of war against Israel, settle on Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah when they came to wage war on Ahaz.
Quote:
Then Rezin king of Aram and Pekah son of Remaliah, king of Israel, came up to Jerusalem to war; and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him. 2 Kings 16:5
Please explain to me what earthly logic there is in giving a prophecy that is supposedly fulfilled either 1000 years before Jesus, or 500 years before Jesus, or not until 70 AD, 40 years after Jesus' death. Fail.
To go through all 300 prophecies would take a book. My question is:
Do we really need all this obscure, vague garble in the Old Testament to believe Jesus is the Messiah? I certainly don't. I agree with scholars that it was early church clergy, trying to convince a skeptical pagan crowd to accept Jesus as God, who began pouring over the Old Testament and said, "Here's one about a child; let's fix this one up to make it look like Jesus fulfilled it." They did this over 300 times until they had a nice thick enough compendium of "fulfilled prophecies" to convince even the hardened skeptical pagan that they should accept Jesus and convert to Christianity. It was a brilliant strategy and it worked brilliantly on a dumbed-down populace of illiterates who couldn't read anything except what the clergy chose to show them.
They went through all the Old Testament and found about 300 verses they could twist and turn and contort to fit Jesus, but only with the greatest strain on credulity.
Are they needed? Clearly, no. We easily accept Jesus as the Son of God and our Savior based solely on the gospels.
For me the Old Testament is for Jews, not Christians.
At best the OT is a distraction. At worst it is a perfect arsenal for atheists to use to convince agnostics that Jesus was NOT the Messiah based on all the failed prophecies it contains, simply because they have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.
Do We Need The Old Testament To Prove Jesus Is the Son of God?
Do we NEED it . . . No. But is it useful to look at what Jesus has actually become and done in human history even thousands of years after His death??? . . . I think so. If anyone like Isaiah (some 800 years or more before He was even born) knew what He would become and do in human history . . . I think that would have some probative value. Don't you? Let's take a look. Remember expecting specificity in the inspired interpretations of a primitive outlining our species SPIRITUAL evolution over such a vast time span would be ludicrous. But I think the highlights that are sufficiently informing:
From Isaiah 52:15
. . . He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: For they to whom it was not told of him, have seen; and they that heard not, have beheld. [The entire European continent of nations (and their kings) would seem to validate this prophesy about Christ.]
From Isaiah 55:4
. . . Behold I have given him for a witness to the people, for a leader and master of the gentiles. [The numerous "Gentile" religions based on Christ certainly validates this prophesy.]
From Isaiah 55:5
. . . Behold thou shalt call a nation which thou knewest not; and the nations that knew not thee shall run to thee, because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for he hath glorified thee. [The creation of the nation of Israel out of Palestine in 1948 by the "Gentiles" certainly validates this prophesy . . . though skeptics will say it is self-fulfilling]
From Isaiah 60:1
. . . Arise, be enlightened, O Jerusalem: For thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee . . . And the Gentiles shall walk in thy light . . . Then shalt thou see and abound, and thy heart shall wonder and be enlarged, when the multitude of the sea shall be converted to thee, the strength of the Gentiles shall come to thee.[The continued and significant support of the nation of Israel by the "strength" of the United States and other "Gentile" nations seems to cover this one.]
Of course the NT also provides useful indicators of Christ's extraordinary accomplishment throughout human history.
From Matthew 21:42
. . . Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, has become the corner stone; by the Lord this has been done, and it is wonderful in our eyes?' [Clearly the Jews are the “builders†who rejected Jesus who has, in more ways than one, become the cornerstone!]
From Matthew 24:14
. . . and the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a witness to all nations. [My guess is we are pretty close to this already, or at least it seems so.]
Jesus was something if for no other reason than to be able to manipulate human history after His death for thousands of years into the future to fit the predicted spiritual template.
Fundamentalists/Evangelicals are fond of saying that Jesus fulfilled over 300 "prophecies" in the Old Testament. Did He really? Let's look:
1. Was Jesus ever at any time in His life called "Immanuel" either by name or reference? In order for this prophecy to be fulfilled someone would have to, at some time in Jesus' life, refer to Him as "Immanuel" to fulfill the prophecy. No record exists this was ever done. Fail.
2. Isaiah 7:16 is a reference to Jesus according to early clergy
How do apologists explain that Israel was still intact 400 years before Jesus was born right up until 70 AD? Well, apparently some say that Israel was "destroyed" when the two halves, Judah and Israel, split apart right after Solomon's death, but this occurred roughly 400 years before Isaiah even gave the prophecy, in 922 BC. Other apologists, scrambling to find any two kings in Israel's history that might involve some kind of war against Israel, settle on Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah when they came to wage war on Ahaz.
Please explain to me what earthly logic there is in giving a prophecy that is supposedly fulfilled either 1000 years before Jesus, or 500 years before Jesus, or not until 70 AD, 40 years after Jesus' death. Fail.
To go through all 300 prophecies would take a book. My question is:
Do we really need all this obscure, vague garble in the Old Testament to believe Jesus is the Messiah? I certainly don't. I agree with scholars that it was early church clergy, trying to convince a skeptical pagan crowd to accept Jesus as God, who began pouring over the Old Testament and said, "Here's one about a child; let's fix this one up to make it look like Jesus fulfilled it." They did this over 300 times until they had a nice thick enough compendium of "fulfilled prophecies" to convince even the hardened skeptical pagan that they should accept Jesus and convert to Christianity. It was a brilliant strategy and it worked brilliantly on a dumbed-down populace of illiterates who couldn't read anything except what the clergy chose to show them.
They went through all the Old Testament and found about 300 verses they could twist and turn and contort to fit Jesus, but only with the greatest strain on credulity.
Are they needed? Clearly, no. We easily accept Jesus as the Son of God and our Savior based solely on the gospels.
This is great timing for me for I just started taking some Tanach classes. Please bear with me because I am going to break down your post into individual questions and answer each separately. This will give me time to research what the rabbis have to say regarding your questions.
Personally, I admit not giving the Tanakh the study time it deserves. Considering the Tanakh were the Scriptures Jesus taught from and the Apostles referred to, it is not just important, but inseparable.
1. Was Jesus ever at any time in His life called "Immanuel" either by name or reference? In order for this prophecy to be fulfilled someone would have to, at some time in Jesus' life, refer to Him as "Immanuel" to fulfill the prophecy. No record exists this was ever done. Fail.
Immanuel, of course means, “God with us.†It was never intended to be Jesus’ name. In Isaiah 9:6 we’re told…â€and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.†Obviously, these were not intended to be his given name.
Fundamentalists/Evangelicals are fond of saying that Jesus fulfilled over 300 "prophecies" in the Old Testament. Did He really? Let's look:
1. Was Jesus ever at any time in His life called "Immanuel" either by name or reference? In order for this prophecy to be fulfilled someone would have to, at some time in Jesus' life, refer to Him as "Immanuel" to fulfill the prophecy. No record exists this was ever done. Fail.
2. Isaiah 7:16 is a reference to Jesus according to early clergy
How do apologists explain that Israel was still intact 400 years before Jesus was born right up until 70 AD? Well, apparently some say that Israel was "destroyed" when the two halves, Judah and Israel, split apart right after Solomon's death, but this occurred roughly 400 years before Isaiah even gave the prophecy, in 922 BC. Other apologists, scrambling to find any two kings in Israel's history that might involve some kind of war against Israel, settle on Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah when they came to wage war on Ahaz.
Please explain to me what earthly logic there is in giving a prophecy that is supposedly fulfilled either 1000 years before Jesus, or 500 years before Jesus, or not until 70 AD, 40 years after Jesus' death. Fail.
To go through all 300 prophecies would take a book. My question is:
Do we really need all this obscure, vague garble in the Old Testament to believe Jesus is the Messiah? I certainly don't. I agree with scholars that it was early church clergy, trying to convince a skeptical pagan crowd to accept Jesus as God, who began pouring over the Old Testament and said, "Here's one about a child; let's fix this one up to make it look like Jesus fulfilled it." They did this over 300 times until they had a nice thick enough compendium of "fulfilled prophecies" to convince even the hardened skeptical pagan that they should accept Jesus and convert to Christianity. It was a brilliant strategy and it worked brilliantly on a dumbed-down populace of illiterates who couldn't read anything except what the clergy chose to show them.
They went through all the Old Testament and found about 300 verses they could twist and turn and contort to fit Jesus, but only with the greatest strain on credulity.
Are they needed? Clearly, no. We easily accept Jesus as the Son of God and our Savior based solely on the gospels.
The issue is whether or not the Old Testament actually contains Messianic prophecies which were fulfilled by Jesus at His first advent and which will be fulfilled by Jesus at His second Advent. The Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament were given to Israel regarding the Messiah who was to come in the future.
Before commenting on Isaiah 7:14-16 in a later post, I will point out in this post that Jesus Himself claimed to have fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 61 up to the point of Isaiah 61:1-2a.
Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district. 15] And He began teaching in their synagogues and was praised by all. 16] And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17] And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written, 18]“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,19]to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.†20] And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21] And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; 2] To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn,
All of Isaiah 61 is a Messianic prophecy concerning Jesus, but Jesus stopped reading at the point in Isaiah 61:2 where it says, 'To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD'' because that was the only part of the prophecy which had been fulfilled at that point. The rest of the prophecy of Isaiah 61 beginning with ''And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn'' in Isaiah 61:2b will be fulfilled when Jesus returns to set up His Millennial kingdom.
Fundamentalists/Evangelicals are fond of saying that Jesus fulfilled over 300 "prophecies" in the Old Testament. Did He really? Let's look:
1. Was Jesus ever at any time in His life called "Immanuel" either by name or reference? In order for this prophecy to be fulfilled someone would have to, at some time in Jesus' life, refer to Him as "Immanuel" to fulfill the prophecy. No record exists this was ever done. Fail.
2. Isaiah 7:16 is a reference to Jesus according to early clergy
How do apologists explain that Israel was still intact 400 years before Jesus was born right up until 70 AD? Well, apparently some say that Israel was "destroyed" when the two halves, Judah and Israel, split apart right after Solomon's death, but this occurred roughly 400 years before Isaiah even gave the prophecy, in 922 BC. Other apologists, scrambling to find any two kings in Israel's history that might involve some kind of war against Israel, settle on Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah when they came to wage war on Ahaz.
Please explain to me what earthly logic there is in giving a prophecy that is supposedly fulfilled either 1000 years before Jesus, or 500 years before Jesus, or not until 70 AD, 40 years after Jesus' death. Fail.
To go through all 300 prophecies would take a book. My question is:
Do we really need all this obscure, vague garble in the Old Testament to believe Jesus is the Messiah? I certainly don't. I agree with scholars that it was early church clergy, trying to convince a skeptical pagan crowd to accept Jesus as God, who began pouring over the Old Testament and said, "Here's one about a child; let's fix this one up to make it look like Jesus fulfilled it." They did this over 300 times until they had a nice thick enough compendium of "fulfilled prophecies" to convince even the hardened skeptical pagan that they should accept Jesus and convert to Christianity. It was a brilliant strategy and it worked brilliantly on a dumbed-down populace of illiterates who couldn't read anything except what the clergy chose to show them.
They went through all the Old Testament and found about 300 verses they could twist and turn and contort to fit Jesus, but only with the greatest strain on credulity.
Are they needed? Clearly, no. We easily accept Jesus as the Son of God and our Savior based solely on the gospels.
You are going by "name" as we use it today. The name of someone in those times and especially to the Jews was different, it has to do with their character and attributes. In other words, he would literally Be "God with us", not be necessarily given that as a name like "Bob". This is what it means to believe on the "name" of Jesus. You have to believe who His character and attributes proved him to be. That is why John said literally in the greek, "God was the Word". Why he mentioned him "becoming flesh". Because in so doing he was saying that Jesus was "God with us".
As for the other point you bring up, i have never seen Isaiah 7:16 referenced as pointing to Jesus. What "clergy" are you referencing out of curiousity? There are plenty of things that do point to Christ in the OT, and Christ, Himself showed this to the disciples after His resurrection (Luke 24:44-49). Christ says that the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms all contain things about Him that have to be fulfilled. Christ Himself claimed to be fulfilling some verses about the Messiah. (Luke 4).
Do we NEED it . . . No. But is it useful to look at what Jesus has actually become and done in human history even thousands of years after His death??? . . . I think so. If anyone like Isaiah (some 800 years or more before He was even born) knew what He would become and do in human history . . . I think that would have some probative value. Don't you? Let's take a look. Remember expecting specificity in the inspired interpretations of a primitive outlining our species SPIRITUAL evolution over such a vast time span would be ludicrous. But I think the highlights that are sufficiently informing:
From Isaiah 52:15
. . . He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: For they to whom it was not told of him, have seen; and they that heard not, have beheld. [The entire European continent of nations (and their kings) would seem to validate this prophesy about Christ.]
From Isaiah 55:4
. . . Behold I have given him for a witness to the people, for a leader and master of the gentiles. [The numerous "Gentile" religions based on Christ certainly validates this prophesy.]
From Isaiah 55:5
. . . Behold thou shalt call a nation which thou knewest not; and the nations that knew not thee shall run to thee, because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for he hath glorified thee. [The creation of the nation of Israel out of Palestine in 1948 by the "Gentiles" certainly validates this prophesy . . . though skeptics will say it is self-fulfilling]
From Isaiah 60:1
. . . Arise, be enlightened, O Jerusalem: For thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee . . . And the Gentiles shall walk in thy light . . . Then shalt thou see and abound, and thy heart shall wonder and be enlarged, when the multitude of the sea shall be converted to thee, the strength of the Gentiles shall come to thee.[The continued and significant support of the nation of Israel by the "strength" of the United States and other "Gentile" nations seems to cover this one.]
Of course the NT also provides useful indicators of Christ's extraordinary accomplishment throughout human history.
From Matthew 21:42
. . . Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'The stone which the builders rejected, has become the corner stone; by the Lord this has been done, and it is wonderful in our eyes?' [Clearly the Jews are the “builders” who rejected Jesus who has, in more ways than one, become the cornerstone!]
From Matthew 24:14
. . . and the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a witness to all nations. [My guess is we are pretty close to this already, or at least it seems so.]
Jesus was something if for no other reason than to be able to manipulate human history after His death for thousands of years into the future to fit the predicted spiritual template.
Honestly, I could go with the verses Jesus said about Himself being legitimate prophecies. But the others just so cryptic and vague as to be applicable to just about anybody.
Look at Nostradamus:
Beasts ferocious from hunger will swim across rivers: (true--Europe was starving after WW1) The greater part of the region will be against the "hister" (Hitler) (true--the Allies all ganged up against Hitler) The great one will cause it to be dragged in an iron cage (true--USA was the "great one" who defeated Hitler) When the Germany child will observe nothing (true--Hitler was Germany's leader and Nazism crept up on Germany almost unnoticed)
Is this an accurate prophecy about Hitler and WW2? Sure looks to be. In many respects it looks to be more accurate than any Biblical prophecy because it gives the name of the defeated leader 500 years before he came on the scene and records his downfall and who defeated him.
My point being that the fact a seer accurately prophesized about Hitler is just a novelty which doesn't affect Hitler's actions, horrible as they were.
Hitler would have come on the scene with or without Nostradamus.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-03-2014 at 09:57 AM..
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Do We Need The Old Testament To Prove Jesus Is the Son of God?
