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you are not following the logic. What are the probabilities that Jesus would match the prophecies (and there are more) that were generated within the very religion from which He emerged over so long a time span AFTER His death. It could be argued (and it has been) That He and His followers hatched a Passover Plot to fulfill prophesies in the OT. That would account for the time He was alive. How do we account for His extended impact over thousands of years of human history? It simply defies logic.
I get what you're saying. I read the Passover Plot many years ago. I thought it was a lot of baloney even then, the idea that Jesus was working overtime to try to fulfill all these hundreds of prophecies, which any sane man would have realized is utter impossible. But let's look at it from the direction that Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Whatever transpired in the Old Testament about him or not about Him would have had absolutely no relevance to His mission, so the "prophecies" could have been real or they could have been the musings of poets; it would not have affected Jesus' mission one iota, which is why I contend the Old Testament prophecies--real or imagined-- are not critical to His mission, except to offer some kind of proof to skeptics to say, "Well, prove to me that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God." So a Christian opens up Isaiah and reads Chap. 53. The skeptic might buy it. If that's what it takes to convert him fine. But I personally do not believe these Nostradamus-like vague, non-specific scriptures are essential for Christian apologists to use in church services. It's like preaching to the choir. They're non-essential. Do real Christians really needs the Old Testament to find faith in Jesus?
I wouldn't have to read the Old Testament again for the rest of my life and I'd get along just fine believing Jesus was my Savior reading the gospels and nothing else. I have no doubt there is a God, and if there is a God He'd have no problem sending His Son to redeem us. That's all I need to believe. But some people want proof, and if these 300 cryptic verses that to me speak nothing about Jesus--they never mention Him by name--if these help people believe then I suppose there's a use for them.
Let's look at the very first "supposed" prophecy of Jesus:
Quote:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
How does anyone know this "seed" is Jesus, except after 2000 years of clerics indoctrinating people into believing it? "Enmity between the woman and a snake---doesn't make a bit of sense, except that women get terrified when a snake slithers into her bathroom. You ever see a woman go into hysterics when she sees a snake in her house? There's the enmity between a woman and a snake!! She beats the *&^% out of it with a sledgehammer or gets her husband to do it. Sounds a bit silly for Almighty God to be referencing such a silly metaphor in relation to predicting His Son coming to earth to save mankind.
"And between thy seed and her seed" How is this any reference to Jesus Christ, I ask you. If you hadn't been told Jesus was the woman's seed would you have the slightest inkling? I thought the woman's seed was the Jewish people of Abraham which sprung from Eve. I had not the vaguest clue this was a reference to Jesus until a pastor a congregation one Sunday. I still could comprehend the logic of it being about Jesus.
"it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." IT??? Jesus is an IT now???? Again, I thought this was the Jewish people fighting against satan and ultimately winning the battle after a fierce struggle, but I had absolutely no clue what the snakes head being stepped on and it biting a seed's heel had to do with Jesus defeating satan. Jesus never stepped on satan's head and satan never bit Jesus's heel. But Christian apologists explain in poetic metaphoric terms, 'Well the stepping on the head represents this and this, and the snake biting the seed's heel represents that and that!" It's all subjective interpretation without any application to any real substantive concrete prophecy that Jesus was coming on earth. No incarnation of Jesus is ever mentioned in that verse. Again, this is all just poetic musings of a Jewish writer that could be interpreted any way the reader wanted to interpret it.
If you go through all the "prophecies you can analyze them such and find no tangible clues to these sayings being about Jesus except through subjective biased interpretations.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-04-2014 at 01:48 AM..
I really don't have the need or the ability to prove anything about the Gospel to anyone. The bible tells us that the "Things of God are NONSENSE to the NATURAL man". We are also told that the "Gospel is an OFFENCE" to the natural man. God's simple plan of redemption is all we are called upon to share with nonbelievers. God uses this "nonsense" as Paul calls it to bring people to faith. At that point they will become interested in exploring the deeper things of God and hopefully with The Holy Spirit's illuminating power they will come to a fuller understanding of the things of God.
What, you mean those claiming to have God's spirit leading them AND reject scripture as the writings of ignorant goat herders are the true carnal men??????
So when Paul preached to them, why in verse 32 did they sneer about the resurrection from the dead if they had earlier been listening to him teaching from the scriptures.
He did not speak scripture to the Athenians when he preached who the unknown God is. . Acts 17:22-32
First everytime Paul spoke he did not have to sue scripture anymore than we do today.
Next he did use scripture, so he did not rely solely on God' spirit as a reason for them to believe.
Next some did not believe, because like the Sadducees they did not believe in a resurrection (Greeks had a far different belief) and that was in-spite of having the OT available to them.
Just as me reject scripture today as did those foolish Greeks.
It is clear Paul used scripture as the basis for his beliefs and encouraged others to test against scripture. So your position is not sustainable at all. You can hold to your belief, but it conflicts with clear scripture and God's spirit, so ............... maybe you need to rethink your position as some Sadducees did.
What a tremendous verse Isiaiah 60:1 is. Thy light is come, yet if the bible is the light tben the light was already here. I would prefer to believe what the scripture testifies of................. Jesus Christ the Light of the world, and what is more he is the Light of our individual worlds.
The lamp has two bulbs; Scripture and Jesus.
Those who only see one end up with very dim light.
First everytime Paul spoke he did not have to sue scripture anymore than we do today.
Next he did use scripture, so he did not rely solely on God' spirit as a reason for them to believe.
Next some did not believe, because like the Sadducees they did not believe in a resurrection (Greeks had a far different belief) and that was in-spite of having the OT available to them.
Just as me reject scripture today as did those foolish Greeks.
It is clear Paul used scripture as the basis for his beliefs and encouraged others to test against scripture. So your position is not sustainable at all. You can hold to your belief, but it conflicts with clear scripture and God's spirit, so ............... maybe you need to rethink your position as some Sadducees did.
You are reading into the account what is not there. You'd be all over anyone who was using the same assumptions that you are that are not there.
you are not following the logic. What are the probabilities that Jesus would match the prophecies (and there are more) that were generated within the very religion from which He emerged over so long a time span AFTER His death. It could be argued (and it has been) That He and His followers hatched a Passover Plot to fulfill prophesies in the OT. That would account for the time He was alive. How do we account for His extended impact over thousands of years of human history? It simply defies logic.
He also could not control his birth, his ancestry, the city of his birth, his being taken to Egypt, his growing up in Nazareth (thus a Nazarene) all of which were beyond his power to control.
I really don't have the need or the ability to prove anything about the Gospel to anyone. The bible tells us that the "Things of God are NONSENSE to the NATURAL man". We are also told that the "Gospel is an OFFENCE" to the natural man. God's simple plan of redemption is all we are called upon to share with nonbelievers. God uses this "nonsense" as Paul calls it to bring people to faith. At that point they will become interested in exploring the deeper things of God and hopefully with The Holy Spirit's illuminating power they will come to a fuller understanding of the things of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
What, you mean those claiming to have God's spirit leading them AND reject scripture as the writings of ignorant goat herders are the true carnal men??????
Stop accusing us of rejecting scripture just because you foolishly believe ALL of it indiscriminately instead of properly dividing it. Sadly the carnal-minded THINK they have interpreted the Bible spiritually when in fact they have interpreted it carnally under the veil of ignorance. They are the Natural men who do not understand God because of the barbaric beliefs about God in the OT. Using that wrong nature of God and His motives they completely misinterpreted the significance and reason for Christ's sacrifice to our barbaric ancestors' savagery. For this reason, I tend to agree with Thrill that we would be better off never using the OT because it is so difficult to lift the veil of ignorance from it.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 07-04-2014 at 07:33 PM..
Those who only see one end up with very dim light.
Try an LED, their more energy efficient, unlike the traditional incandescent.
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There's the enmity between a woman and a snake!! She beats the *&^% out of it with a sledgehammer or gets her husband to do it. Sounds a bit silly for Almighty God to be referencing such a silly metaphor in relation to predicting His Son coming to earth to save mankind.
