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Post #6 which you are objecting to was in reply to what Katzpur said.
As I said, the purpose of the OP was not to invite debate. Both Protestants, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox church recognize that the Bible reveals that there is one God, but that there are three who are that God. Therefore, the Trinity. But if you don't believe in the Trinity, you are entitled to your opinion.
You probably already know this, but I define my belief as what I would call The Informal Trinity. I believe in God the Father, God the Son/Jesus Christ and God the Holy Spirit. Because the Biblical record goes no further in it's description of Deity, I do not feel it is justified for any Bible believing Christian has any business doing so on God's behalf. I have my own conclusions and beliefs beyond this, but I do not have the right to tell others that they must accept my ideas in order to be a "real Christian."
There are many old Christian doctrines that were once almost universally accepted. Ex Nihilo Creation (God spoke and the Earth popped into existence), the Geocentric Universe (everything in the universe revolves around planet Earth), etc. Prior to the Protestant Reformation, all of Christianity accepted the notion that celibate monasticism was a higher, more Godly lifestyle. There are countless things that were once considered absolute truth within all Christendom that just aren't anymore.
Why is the rigidly defined Nicene Trinity so absolute?? The early Catholic Church and Ecumenical Councils were wrong on so many other things, so how can we be so sure they got the Godhead right?? In affirming the absoluteness of the Nicene Trinity, you and others are essentially admitting that Ecumenical Councils are even more authoritative than the Bible itself. The doctrine of the Trinity tells you that you must interpret the Bible in a very specific way after all.
And we both know perfectly well that there have been countless believers in Christ who rejected the Nicene Trinity over the centuries. Many were tortured and massacred for daring to think differently. The unanimity of Eastern Catholic, Western Catholic and Mainline Protestantism is the direct result of the fact that anyone speaking against the Nicene Trinity has been brutalized for doing so.
You probably already know this, but I define my belief as what I would call The Informal Trinity. I believe in God the Father, God the Son/Jesus Christ and God the Holy Spirit. Because the Biblical record goes no further in it's description of Deity, I do not feel it is justified for any Bible believing Christian has any business doing so on God's behalf. I have my own conclusions and beliefs beyond this, but I do not have the right to tell others that they must accept my ideas in order to be a "real Christian."
There are many old Christian doctrines that were once almost universally accepted. Ex Nihilo Creation (God spoke and the Earth popped into existence), the Geocentric Universe (everything in the universe revolves around planet Earth), etc. Prior to the Protestant Reformation, all of Christianity accepted the notion that celibate monasticism was a higher, more Godly lifestyle. There are countless things that were once considered absolute truth within all Christendom that just aren't anymore.
Why is the rigidly defined Nicene Trinity so absolute?? The early Catholic Church and Ecumenical Councils were wrong on so many other things, so how can we be so sure they got the Godhead right?? In affirming the absoluteness of the Nicene Trinity, you and others are essentially admitting that Ecumenical Councils are even more authoritative than the Bible itself. The doctrine of the Trinity tells you that you must interpret the Bible in a very specific way after all.
And we both know perfectly well that there have been countless believers in Christ who rejected the Nicene Trinity over the centuries. Many were tortured and massacred for daring to think differently. The unanimity of Eastern Catholic, Western Catholic and Mainline Protestantism is the direct result of the fact that anyone speaking against the Nicene Trinity has been brutalized for doing so.
It is obvious that you have a problem with the Nicene Creed. However, I didn't mention the Nicene Creed. What I did say is that while there is one true God, there are three who are that God. Therefore, while God is one Being, there are three - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit who are that one Being.
I do not intend to keep defending what I said in post #6. If you disagree with what I said, then you disagree. And I really don't care about your issues with the Nicene Creed. The purpose of the OP was made clear.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-26-2014 at 07:00 PM..
It is obvious that you have a problem with the Nicene Creed. However, I didn't mention the Nicene Creed. What I did say is that while there is one true God, there are three who are that God. Therefore, while God is one Being, there are three - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit who are that one Being.
I do not intend to keep defending what I said in post #6. If you disagree with what I said, then you disagree. And I really don't care about your issues with the Nicene Creed. The purpose of the OP was made clear.
If the entire premise of the thread is that Jehovah = Jesus, then we are 100% in agreement. As it happens, Katzpur is also 100% in agreement. I just don't understand why you made the choice to respond to Katzpur's comment with a bunch of non-Biblical Nicene Trinity garbage when all she did was agree with you. We both know perfectly well that she's LDS. We both know that you quite passionately disagree with her understanding of God. Your response quite clearly lays out, "And here's why are wrong in your beliefs, Katzpur."
To be frank, the LDS concept of deity is an issue that's been beaten to death. Since they obviously affirm that Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same, why muddy this thread with the whole LDS Godhead vs Nicene Trinity debate?? You, me and Katzpur all agree with the underlying premise of this thread, so why not just leave it at that?
If the entire premise of the thread is that Jehovah = Jesus, then we are 100% in agreement. As it happens, Katzpur is also 100% in agreement. I just don't understand why you made the choice to respond to Katzpur's comment with a bunch of non-Biblical Nicene Trinity garbage when all she did was agree with you. We both know perfectly well that she's LDS. We both know that you quite passionately disagree with her understanding of God. Your response quite clearly lays out, "And here's why are wrong in your beliefs, Katzpur."
To be frank, the LDS concept of deity is an issue that's been beaten to death. Since they obviously affirm that Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same, why muddy this thread with the whole LDS Godhead vs Nicene Trinity debate?? You, me and Katzpur all agree with the underlying premise of this thread, so why not just leave it at that?
I made no mention of LDS beliefs. I simply replied to Katzpur's statement. Don't attempt to start contention on this thread.
Both opinions come from respected Christian fundamentalist websites, yet both opinions are at odds with each other. Is it surprising that two fundamentalist Christians reading the exact same Bible would come away with completely different opinions on what the Bible purportedly says about Jesus being Yahweh?
This complaint has nothing to do with the intended purpose of the OP. That purpose being simply to show that both the apostle John and the writer of Hebrews recognized the deity of Jesus Christ. They both identified Him as Yah-weh.
That's nice. The Romans identified Yah-weh as Cronus.
Post #6 which you are objecting to was in reply to what Katzpur said.
As I said, the purpose of the OP was not to invite debate. Protestants, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox church all recognize that the Bible reveals that there is one God, but that there are three who are that God. Therefore, the Trinity. But if you don't believe in the Trinity, you are entitled to your opinion.
Do you know why they do that? It's because of the Catholic Church's Nicene Creed, and the subsequent disempowerment of other Christian creeds through political, and thus social, clout.
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