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Yes GOT (godofthunder), by your confession, you are a UR ist. :-)
I see salvation as pertaining to the elect, i.e. those who are called out / chosen by God / receive Jesus Christ BEFORE they die – that is probably my early fundamentalist leanings, and the temporal mindset we tend to have. However, the UR scriptures do put the emphasis on the fact that salvation was transacted for all mankind when Jesus died on the cross – I also like the idea that focusing on the cross doesn’t bring the life required of the spirit; until we are born from above, then the spirituallife of Jesus Christ cannot do it’s life bringing, sanctifying work, and even then we are meant to be ‘overcomers’. So I don't think it is clear how and when sanctification is wrought, except the after ages must have all manner of experiences (for personal meaningfulness, progress, competency and choice) such that individuals feel empowered to be drawn to Christ. My understanding is that believing Jesus is God is fairly fundamental to 'being saved' in the fundamentalist sense, so I’m interested to hear what role Jesus doesn’t play from Pleroo’s perspective…?
Age_during, I'm no longer a Christian, so perhaps that will lessen your interest.
I think "Christ" is the important player, not the man Jesus. And Christ to me = the "word of God" = the spirit of God, the active, creative, transforming power of God which "enlightens everyone".
I kind of half agree. I'm not hot on the word Christian either. I don't however see how you can separate Jesus and Christ. From the NDE accounts I've read, there is a bloke/guy in heaven and people refer to him as Jesus Christ, after they've met him. Tell me how you get round it and separate Jesus from Christ, please?
I kind of half agree. I'm not hot on the word Christian either. I don't however see how you can separate Jesus and Christ. From the NDE accounts I've read, there is a bloke/guy in heaven and people refer to him as Jesus Christ, after they've met him. Tell me how you get round it and separate Jesus from Christ, please?
Because I'm a bible cherry picker. I don't know how much of the Jesus story is historically accurate and I don't assume that much of it is. I believe much was embellishment. However, it may very well be that this historical man was filled to bursting with the light that enlightens everyone, "the Christ", and that is why people were mesmerized and inspired by him ... but that doesn't make him the Christ.
As far as what people see in NDEs, they are open to the interpretation of both those who have the NDEs, and those who hear them described.
However, it may very well be that this historical man was filled to bursting with the light that enlightens everyone, "the Christ", and that is why people were mesmerized and inspired by him ... but that doesn't make him the Christ.
This is the basis for the "adoption" theory of Jesus as "The Christ" and it is one of the early explanations of the relationship to "The Father" in the Church. It was ruled a heresy for some reason in the march to orthodoxy.
This is the basis for the "adoption" theory of Jesus as "The Christ" and it is one of the early explanations of the relationship to "The Father" in the Church. It was ruled a heresy for some reason in the march to orthodoxy.
Interesting, nate. According to one site, "Adoptionism was condemned as a heresy by Pope Victor (A.D. 190-198)", and then was revived in the 8th century and condemned again by Pope Leo III in 798.
It does seem to be somewhat different than what I'm saying in that they believed God "adopted" Jesus as a reward once he'd proven himself as worthy, essentially. (That's how the couple of articles I read explained it, and since they consider it a heresy, I take their understanding of the theory with a grain of salt, of course.) I don't see it that way. I think Jesus may simply have discovered how to consistently "walk in the spirit", and the result of that was it's own reward.
I don't think I could pick my way round the cherries in the way you two seem to be implying is ok. It has implications with the virgin birth, Jesus Christ being the first born Son of God, Jesus Christ showing us the Father or as scripture says we could not know Abba. J Preston Eby makes a very good case of Jesus and Christ being inseparable, and discusses His role as a Son here. Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series Part 5
I don't think I could pick my way round the cherries in the way you two seem to be implying is ok. It has implications with the virgin birth, Jesus Christ being the first born Son of God, Jesus Christ showing us the Father or as scripture says we could not know Abba. J Preston Eby makes a very good case of Jesus and Christ being inseparable, and discusses His role as a Son here. Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series Part 5
Whether you could or not really depends on whether you have fallen for the idea that who Jesus is eclipses what He had to say, that belief in His relationship position is essential to the faith that is required in the love of God.
Yes GOT (godofthunder), by your confession, you are a UR ist. :-)
I see salvation as pertaining to the elect, i.e. those who are called out / chosen by God / receive Jesus Christ BEFORE they die – that is probably my early fundamentalist leanings, and the temporal mindset we tend to have. However, the UR scriptures do put the emphasis on the fact that salvation was transacted for all mankind when Jesus died on the cross – I also like the idea that focusing on the cross doesn’t bring the life required of the spirit; until we are born from above, then the spirituallife of Jesus Christ cannot do it’s life bringing, sanctifying work, and even then we are meant to be ‘overcomers’. So I don't think it is clear how and when sanctification is wrought, except the after ages must have all manner of experiences (for personal meaningfulness, progress, competency and choice) such that individuals feel empowered to be drawn to Christ. My understanding is that believing Jesus is God is fairly fundamental to 'being saved' in the fundamentalist sense, so I’m interested to hear what role Jesus doesn’t play from Pleroo’s perspective…?
Hurray!!! I have no found a new way to define myself!!!
It's a pretty broad definition really. There are so many possible subsets within "Universal Reconciliation." As you point out, you don't even need to accept Christ to be a UR. While I do not agree with that personally, it is interesting nonetheless.
I believe that God's drawing of all to Himself is a kind of force. His will will be done despite temporary rebellion and rejection of Him. He is able to effectively convince all of their need for Him and He will one day win the allegiance of all.
Quote:
As you point out, you don't even need to accept Christ to be a UR
You don't have to accept Christ to be a person who believes in an eternal hell either Christian Universalists or Biblical Universalists believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father and we believe that one day all will accept Jesus Christ. God bless.
God bless.
You could be right. But I think you have a slightly different view than some other Christian URs? You believe "salvation" is a done deal and see "sanctification" as a separate thing, is that correct? I think others believe that sanctification is a part of salvation, and is a work in progress. In God's eyes, perhaps, "it is finished", but in our experience, it is yet to come? At least, that is how I used to see it as a Christian UR.
You understand my position correctly, Pleroo. We have noting to do with our salvation. Christ did that part for us. We do need to achieve sanctification under His love for us all through "love of God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't. (In science terms . . . we need to achieve some sort of harmonic resonance with His Holy Spirit of agape love to attain the cover of His perfection for our imperfections.) Anything dissonant with agape love will be refined out as dross.
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I don't know how much of the Jesus story is historically accurate and I don't assume that much of it is. I believe much was embellishment. However, it may very well be that this historical man was filled to bursting with the light that enlightens everyone, "the Christ", and that is why people were mesmerized and inspired by him ... but that doesn't make him the Christ. 
