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I'm sure you are right, but even taking the time to create this thread and work so hard to convince others of his ridiculous notions of God is a real waste of his time and energy!
Agreed. I don't believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but I don't frequent FSM message boards to antagonize followers of his noodleness.
True as if God gave them such commands, where are they in the law He gave them???
Not there, so allowed them to follow their own laws makes much more sense.
Agree, the thought that God allowed them to follow what they thought was right would fit in with what was often the case of the relationship between a wayward nation and God as expressed in Psalm 81:12 which reads, " So I let them follow their stubborn hearts; They did what they thought was right."
Or maybe because they seek to offer a translation of the original texts that is easily readable to anyone that was born later than 1600.
That is what generated all such. As an example the ASV, RSV, NAS, NKJV, etc are all revisions into modern English but .. they will not change the meanings/translation used in the KJV.
Actually the KJV of today was revised in the late 1800's. Very few have or read (try) the 1611 version.
Not all Bible translations are the same (here are some translations where the various editorial committees/scholars arrived at an independent translation from eachother):
"I even let them follow rules that were not good. I let them have laws they could not live by...."
" I also allowed them to follow rules that were not good and laws by which they could not live...."
" I also allowed them to follow laws that were no good and rules by which they could not live...."
"I let them adopt customs and laws which were worthless. Through the keeping of them they could not attain life...'
" I also allowed them to follow laws that were no good and rules by which they could not live...."
" I also allowed them to follow ·rules [statutes] that were not good and ·laws [judgments] by which they could not live...."
There is also an article posted in a journal that I would assume is more in the realm of academics but nevertheless is clear if rather long on the translation of Ezekiel 20:25,26:
The article does make a good point that if one assumes God gave "bad laws" to the Israelites what sense would it make to do so since they could not follow the "good laws." Additionally, when one thinks about the hardening of hearts it appears such action happens only after being patient or in Pharoah's case being patient and providing extraordinary evidence that the God of the Israelites was the true God (the plagues were not just random acts they were meant to coincide with the deities of the Egyptians that were most important to them and prove them powerless to stop). So as the article brings out it's often a persons continued intransigence that dulls their thinking ability and get on the "right path."
Is the above the "definitive" answer...no,but it does offer a different perspective rather than assume God gives evil laws.
Plagues are only evidence of Plagues. If a priest of Zeus insinuated that plagues were due to Zues's wrath any Pharoe would have to laugh, since plagues have other causes and arguments from ignorance aren't very solid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
True as if God gave them such commands, where are they in the law He gave them???
Not there, so allowed them to follow their own laws makes much more sense.
Clearly you have no idea about the history of how the Jewish scriptures were written, collected, and edited. All city-states often tried to rule by "laws from Heaven" and Israel was one of them. The writings weren't collected until after the Babylonian conquest. And its clear they are heavily edited and incomplete. Yahweh is even quoted as saying he will no longer allow human sacrifeses... But when did he allow them? Obviously when the Israelites were as ignorant and superstitious as the Iron-age Celts or Early Medieval Scandinavians, and thought that the eventual culmination to more and more valuable sacrifices ended worse and worse blights (instead of time).
I'd say god has done a very good job of guarding Israel if you look at the nations who have attacked it. Israel is a pretty small nation but has defeated the combined army's of much larger nations.
The Land Of Israel is NOT the same as the modern day State Of Israel. Two different things. Let's not forget about the nations that Israel has attacked first and provoked first. So it goes both ways.
Land Of Israel and State Of Israel are both two separate entities!
plagues are only evidence of plagues. If a priest
of zeus insinuated that plagues were due to zues's wrath any pharoe would have
to laugh, since plagues have other causes and arguments from ignorance aren't
very solid
.
From the viewpoint of the ancient Jews...No. Those plagues would have been evidence of divine intervention. They didn't miss the point that God brought them out of Egypt not some natural phenomena. I doubt that a whole people through the centuries would have willingly allowed themselves to be subject under the Mosaic Law which by the time Jesus came had morphed into burdensome laws such as making it unlawful to pluck grain for food as you pass a few stalks on the Sabbath because it would be considered reaping. They would be the victims of the biggest hoax of all time.
However, need not worry that it was a hoax. No one worships Zeus. No one looks upon Pharoahs as gods. Yet here we are some 2000 years later having discussions about the Bible and the God of the Bible. Talk about staying power!
From the viewpoint of the ancient Jews...No. Those plagues would have been evidence of divine intervention. They didn't miss the point that God brought them out of Egypt not some natural phenomena. I doubt that a whole people through the centuries would have willingly allowed themselves to be subject under the Mosaic Law which by the time Jesus came had morphed into burdensome laws such as making it unlawful to pluck grain for food as you pass a few stalks on the Sabbath because it would be considered reaping. They would be the victims of the biggest hoax of all time.
However, need not worry that it was a hoax. No one worships Zeus. No one looks upon Pharoahs as gods. Yet here we are some 2000 years later having discussions about the Bible and the God of the Bible. Talk about staying power!
Yes for the ancient Jews, but divine intervention would have been a bit more obvious if God had appeared and demonstrated himself... although they wrote that he eventually did in the Desert, in private only to the elders, hidden in dark clouds. Nothing brought them out of Egypt. Egypt was a better country and any refugees from droughts would have been better off there if they had acculturated as Americans in the United States seek of their immigrants.
The majority is always wrong, because they are of the world. As it stands, there is a minority in oppression that does worship Zeus and some that look upon Pharaohs as signs of Heaven's presence on Earth. I don't remember the Egyptian historians writing about Divine Plagues only about plucking the Hyksos and Atenists off their backs, and defeating the House of David and ending it's seed (killing off all the the main line of the royal family).
There are people even still believing that all the things in the Upanishads are true historical accounts. The desperate always throw themselves in the arms of their desperation. The Mosaic Laws aren't that burdensome, it's not that hard to control your hand from creating a reaping on the Sabbath and thus not keep it holy. If you did, you could always follow the law and nullify the act by buying and offering an animal sacrifice for the priests in the Jerusalem temple to Eat. Life under Mosaic Law is likely even a bit easier than life in North Korea for example.
Israel put their own hand in a hot stove, and they haven't figured out whether God controls everything or doesn't.
Agreed. I don't believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but I don't frequent FSM message boards to antagonize followers of his noodleness.
Perhaps you don't do this because FSM followers aren't generally trying to insinuate their beliefs into every part of your life, of your children's lives, of laws you must follow, of how your society is structured, how education is delivered, whom you can and can't marry and so on. Hence, you don't have much need to attempt to apply logic and understanding into FSM's followers just to get them back off and let you live your own life your way.
Just a thought.
I just love the whole weepy traumatized "why OH WHY don't non-Christians just leave us alone and at peace so we can continue to intrude upon their lives and their children's lives" mentality.
By notable contrast, the FSM is pretty chill, you can eat your bruschetta with or without oil-and-rosemary, it is all good to Him, all paths lead to the Big Plate. And He has NEVER, at least so far, been known to toss anyone into an eternal agonizing flame of tortures because try as they might, they just COULD NOT get into clam sauce. All are welcome.
He's no threat to you; hence, you do not visit the boards of His followers to question them and their motives. Besides, you most likely realize the FSM isn't real at all...because you know...some huge, all-powerful, odd being in the sky with questionable, alien motives that you can't see and can't prove, yet controls what you do? Now THAT'S crazy.
I think the severe, overblown punishments of the OT just pretty much reflect the overblown human punishments of the time(s) and general locale in which the writers lived.
"We stone women to death for sleeping around, hit wives and children but only with sticks that don't exceed X size in diameter and cut off your hand if you steal, so God probably acts the same way."
From the viewpoint of the ancient Jews...No. Those plagues would have been evidence of divine intervention. They didn't miss the point that God brought them out of Egypt not some natural phenomena. I doubt that a whole people through the centuries would have willingly allowed themselves to be subject under the Mosaic Law which by the time Jesus came had morphed into burdensome laws such as making it unlawful to pluck grain for food as you pass a few stalks on the Sabbath because it would be considered reaping. They would be the victims of the biggest hoax of all time.
However, need not worry that it was a hoax. No one worships Zeus. No one looks upon Pharoahs as gods. Yet here we are some 2000 years later having discussions about the Bible and the God of the Bible. Talk about staying power!
(bolding mine)
Scratching head here regarding the bolded. If you're intimating that Christianity has more "staying power" than the belief systems you just referenced, how are you getting that? Because Christianity is still here and they aren't? It may have escaped you that that's because they also started much earlier, LOL. And many religions follow a course - a beginning, often based on previous belief systems (just like Christianity); morphing and blending over time as new ideas set in; extinction. (We don't know yet that Christianity won't go extinct, by the way. Which is part of the point I'm about to make.)
"Total running time" isn't any longer for Christianity than those religions you just loosely referenced, and for one of them, so far it's much shorter...I'll get to those details in a minute.
Saying Christianity has more "staying power" than much, much older religions that have now run their course is like my saying I have more "staying power" than my great-grandmother (who died at age 98) because, well, look. I'm still here! And where's she?
So. "Staying power" of Christianity to date v. other religions...
Hmmm, the last "pagans" in Greece were converted in the 9th century from their overall religion, mythology and panthenon of gods and goddesses; archaeology that has been found so far (and we can by no means have uncovered ALL evidence, that's just not possible) goes back to approximately 1200 BCE linking them, among other groups, having a belief in The Olympians. And since these beliefs probably did not spring up out of thin air, it is very likely the combined religion was older than that. But to be very, very conservative, here we are talking 2100 *minimum* years before the "die-off" even began.
King worship linked to the deities of ancient Egypt are recorded back to approximately 3100 BCE, was blended into/combined with a more Hellenized view much later (~500 BCE) and continued, according to iconographic evidence, in this "newer" version until approximately the 5th century AD - AFTER the arrival of Christianity, obviously (indeed, apparently in spite of it). In fact, the earliest "Christian" Egyptians followed a Coptic religion - a very pagan-influenced version continuing many of the former basic "pagan" beliefs. Indeed, there are still Copts today, though the pagan undertones are pretty subtle now and their rituals are overall very Christian, in fact closest (I believe) to Catholic. So we are, here, talking some 3500 years *actively* of Egyptian mythology/religion. By the way, the Sphinx, with its apparently religious connotations, is dated to approximately 9300 BCE.
2000 years of Christianity, with belief on the decline or at the very least beginning to be modified by/blended with more realistic (scientific) views (for example, the Bible is no longer necessarily considered literal, but for various books or various passages now generally considered allegorical...and even the Pope currently claiming that the Big Bang is a possibility, albeit that God caused the Big Bang), I'm saying it is showing no more "staying power" than the two examples you gave (and to date, as compared to the second example, 1500 years less).
For that matter, Judaism has shown more "staying power" to date than Christianity (obviously...I mean it's just older, period, can't change that, and yes, there are still Jews, again, obviously). As far as Hinduism, as long as we're using "staying power" as proof of veracity: much much older than Christianity and still going strong. "Origins" of Hinduism are hard to pinpoint simply BECAUSE of its great age, the apparent influence of earlier, Neolithic mythology and other factors (the farther one goes back in history, the less likely there will be written accounts of actual dates, for example). However, estimates *begin* at 4000 years ago (and stretch much farther back in history than that, but again, just being conservative here), i.e.: 2000 BCE at the latest.
One other extant religion with more "staying power" to date than Christianity: Gautama the Buddha was born in 563 BCE. Buddhism: still going strong.
By the way, I am far from a history scholar, so anyone, please correct me on these exact dates and details. I would welcome the corrections as I am always fascinated with history. However, the basics should be about right, giving evidence that there were (indeed, in some cases, are) religions that have, if we're going by total time here, at least as much or, in many cases, more "staying power" than Christianity so far.
If "staying power" is proof of veracity, so far, Christianity is coming in fourth among the extant religion examples, sixth if you include the two more or less extinct ones.
Last edited by JerZ; 10-29-2014 at 02:57 AM..
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I'm sure you are right, but even taking the time to create this thread and work so hard to convince others of his ridiculous notions of God is a real waste of his time and energy!
