Book of Mormon / KJV Bible contradictions (some) (the passion, Lutherans, prayer)

[stycotl]

Originally Posted by moonsavvy

Well since you mentioned it.

Mormons and the book of mormon, muslims and the koran.

An angel appeared to Joseph Smith, an angel appeared to Mohammad. Joseph was told to translate plates, Mohammad was told to read from a scroll. Mormons killed people on sept 11th, muslims killed people on sept 11th. Don't these two seem oddly familar? Why should I believe one over another?

do you really want me to go into the exact same similarities between mainstream christianity and the bible? the only difference is that i am not aware of any recorded sept 11 christianity-inspired murders--but i am pretty confidant that if i did an hour's worth of internet homework, i could link you to a couple.

why should anyone believe anything? you can make comparisons all over the place, but that does not neccesarily make either one of the groups evil. i do not believe islam to be the true path to God, but i certainly know quite a few muslims that i respect very much, and know a little bit about their faith, much of which i believe to be truth. i am not saying that i pick and choose religious beliefs to eclectically believe. it is just saying that there is *some* truth just about everywhere.

EDIT: in fact, go to any of the threads that are debating atheism over theism in general. the same argument that you are using to discredit mormonism is used there to discredit christianity. as i mentioned in an earlier post (i think on this thread--hard to remember since there are so many), i find it amusing that the same mainstream christian that cites the problems with radiocarbon dating when applied to his beliefs of the bible will then use the same 'evidence' in order to disprove the book of mormon.

now. let me clarify that i am not offended. merely amused. all i see is a difference of perspective, and at times it is hard to see the scenery behind you unless someone is pointing it out to you, or you happen to have a mirror.

God bless. aaron out.

[moonsavvy]

Originally Posted by stycotl

do you really want me to go into the exact same similarities between mainstream christianity and the bible? the only difference is that i am not aware of any recorded sept 11 christianity-inspired murders--but i am pretty confidant that if i did an hour's worth of internet homework, i could link you to a couple.

why should anyone believe anything? you can make comparisons all over the place, but that does not neccesarily make either one of the groups evil. i do not believe islam to be the true path to God, but i certainly know quite a few muslims that i respect very much, and know a little bit about their faith, much of which i believe to be truth. i am not saying that i pick and choose religious beliefs to eclectically believe. it is just saying that there is *some* truth just about everywhere.

EDIT: in fact, go to any of the threads that are debating atheism over theism in general. the same argument that you are using to discredit mormonism is used there to discredit christianity. as i mentioned in an earlier post (i think on this thread--hard to remember since there are so many), i find it amusing that the same mainstream christian that cites the problems with radiocarbon dating when applied to his beliefs of the bible will then use the same 'evidence' in order to disprove the book of mormon.

now. let me clarify that i am not offended. merely amused. all i see is a difference of perspective, and at times it is hard to see the scenery behind you unless someone is pointing it out to you, or you happen to have a mirror.

God bless. aaron out.

Fair enough, you have every right to believe how you want and I respect yours and other's belief's.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by stycotl

corruption of teaching is a part of apostacy, and still happens today. you are even on this thread trying to make the point that the mormon church is guilty of corrupt teachings. obviously, with over 80,000 different christian churches in the usa alone, each one teaching different things about the plan of salvation and about the atonement of Christ, not all of them can be correct. those out there who claim 'everyone's church is true.', are trying to argue that 1+1=3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or whatever other number you want it to equal in your own personal interpretation of the scriptures. nice philosophy, but not one that i agree with, and by the scriptures, especially 2nd thessalonians, not one that God agrees with.
again, we agree. Christ fulfilled the law. all of it. period. but obviously revelation did not stop, and was not fulfilled. what i asked you, a few posts ago, had to do with this. do you really suppose that after Christ's final ascension in the nt, revelation stopped? i would like to see how you view paul, john, and all the rest. do you believe them to be prophetic? did they receive revelation? if so, how did Christ's ascension terminate revelation. if not, how do you reconcile their books being included in the bible?

i also asked what would it mean to you if we unearthed the rest of the biblical writings that were not included (by the supposed wisdom of man) in our current bible. would you deny the validity of the rest of the books of the apostles, or even of moses, adam, and the rest, just because they were not included in our current version of the holy bible, which was compiled many years after Christ and His atonement and ascension into heaven?

i got a chuckle out of the church bells part. twin, i liked what you said to zimbabwe earlier. i bet that if we were all neighbors, we would be pretty tight. it is easy to detach the person behind the post. i promise you that i am trying very hard to read your posts with a voice behind it (although the one in my head is obviously not your real voice), and a personality. i know that you are a person, with sincere desires, sincere questions, sincere faith, and sincere hopes.

i know that you believe Christ's fulfilling of the scriptures. i hope you can see that i do to. i do not believe that continuing revelation takes away from Christ's message. in fact, i think it proof that God really is the same yesterday, today, and forever. i feel strongly that God guides us today, using the same method as before, of authorized prophets teaching us the word of God, and writing them in the scriptures.

aaron out.

aaron,
didn't mean not to answer your question. thanks for your kind remark. I'll get to the questions in your post later.

The spirit is willing but the brain is ........AWOL

[stycotl]

moon: what is fair enough? i blabbed all over the place there, so i'm not sure what you are referring to.

i do get the feeling that you respect others' beliefs, so please don't think that i get any other impression.

obviously we don't see exactly eye to eye on everything, but i would wager that there is more there in common than in opposition.

twin: ha! in the marine corps we call it ua (unauthorized absence), but either way it gave me a chuckle.

aaron out.

[stycotl]

i am not sure when this came up, or for sure if it were even on this thread, but i remember wanting to touch on it. so while we're on a somewhat similar subject:

mormon teachings considering those not of the mormon faith follows the idea of the heathen nation. we don't believe that nonmormons all go to hell.

again i will touch on the fact that there is truth in nearly every religion on the planet. if a buddhist monk from 200 ad china does his best to live a moral life, and obeys the whisperings of the light of Christ that he has been given, then he will have the chance to accept Christ as his Savior. it will be based upon his life, the choices he made, the person he became, and the faith that he was able to acquire even without ever having heard the name of Christ, but it will be given nonetheless.

the judgment is up to God of course, so i cannot say what the qualifications are, other than the qualifications that are listed in the scriptures.

but i think that the heathen nation is easy to misinterpret. i do not think that the heathen nation refers only to tribal people from a third world country that have never seen missionaries. i think it refers to the atheist down the block who grew up with abusive christian parents, and has fully disowned religion in its entirety because of the fact. i think it refers to the faithful, God-fearing muslim, and the respectful, contemplative wiccan. i think it refers even to many christians themselves.

the heathen nation makes a reference to those who never knew Christ. i think that there are many alive today, even within our own country that have never known Christ. obviously some of them have disconnected themselves from Christ's message and influence themselves; we are not talking about them. we are thinking of the ones that were never given the chance.

God judges us based on justice. Christ saves us based on His mercy. the two of them are diamterically opposite in some aspects, but go perfectly hand in hand under Christ's atonement. Christ made so that justice and mercy could both be fulfilled at the same time.

therefore, i believe that there will be many even among the mormon church that will find that they never knew Christ. in the same regards, i believe that there will be many from different denominations, and many even from no denomination or faith, that will find salvation because of the choices that they made in their lives that affected the outcome of the sum of their personalities, demeanors, and beliefs. it is not about the church; not every christian who bowed in prayer with peter, james, john, paul, or even Christ Himself is going to be saved.

yeah. um, there was more there, but i think my brain just went ua also.

tim to start my homework now anyway. aaron out.

[moonsavvy]

Originally Posted by stycotl

moon: what is fair enough? i blabbed all over the place there, so i'm not sure what you are referring to.

i do get the feeling that you respect others' beliefs, so please don't think that i get any other impression.

obviously we don't see exactly eye to eye on everything, but i would wager that there is more there in common than in opposition.

twin: ha! in the marine corps we call it ua (unauthorized absence), but either way it gave me a chuckle.

aaron out.

Hey Aaron, I was saying fair enough to your views in general. You have the Divinity in your soul that connects you to the source of Life. Acceptance of other's is really acceptance of yourself. I believe you are on that path of acceptance and possibly embracing views from outside wisdom. I think that's a wonderful attribute of yours.

[stycotl]

well thank you kindly. i appreciate the words. i think that there is a great need for people to connect, and to learn from each other, especially nowadays when we are creating an isolationist society.

[stycotl]

again, we agree. Christ fulfilled the law. all of it. period. but obviously revelation did not stop, and was not fulfilled. what i asked you, a few posts ago, had to do with this. do you really suppose that after Christ's final ascension in the nt, revelation stopped? i would like to see how you view paul, john, and all the rest. do you believe them to be prophetic? did they receive revelation? if so, how did Christ's ascension terminate revelation. if not, how do you reconcile their books being included in the bible?

i also asked what would it mean to you if we unearthed the rest of the biblical writings that were not included (by the supposed wisdom of man) in our current bible. would you deny the validity of the rest of the books of the apostles, or even of moses, adam, and the rest, just because they were not included in our current version of the holy bible, which was compiled many years after Christ and His atonement and ascension into heaven?

i am still very interested in hearing the responses to these questions (post 99), and the rest of them that i have brought up. my desire does not come from a need to argue or anything, just to understand from where you and the rest of mainstream christianity come from with regard to these issues.

aaron out.

[JNHarris]

Originally Posted by moonsavvy

OK so what is it about the Book of Mormon that is so special? I know Mormons think of it as the most true book out there. Why is that?

I have a book of mormon, I've read it, to me it's a compilation of stories. But to some it is the golden word. Can you explain why it is so special? If your answer is too personal I understand why you wouldn't want to share it. But if you can share I'm curious to know why this book is viewed as the most true to mormons.

Moonsavvy,

Hopefully, I can best answer your first question, at least speaking for myself, by sharing a few passages from this precious book with you.


1 Nephi 15:

23 And they said unto me: What meaneth the rod of iron which our father saw, that led to the tree [of life]?
24 And I said unto them that it was the word of God; and whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would never perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead them away to destruction.


2 Nephi 2:

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth....
8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.


Jacob 4:

3 .... and we labor diligently to engraven these words upon plates, hoping that our beloved brethren and our children will receive them with thankful hearts, and look upon them that they may learn with joy and not with sorrow, neither with contempt, concerning their first parents.
4 For, for this intent have we written these things, that they may know that we knew of Christ, and we had a hope of his glory many hundred years before his coming; and not only we ourselves had a hope of his glory, but also all the holy prophets which were before us.
5 Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law of Moses, it pointing our souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son Isaac, which is a similitude of God and his Only Begotten Son.


Mosiah 5:

2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.
3 And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things.
4 And it is the faith which we have had on the things which our king has spoken unto us that has brought us to this great knowledge, whereby we do rejoice with such exceedingly great joy.
5 And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days.....
6 And now, these are the words which king Benjamin desired of them; and therefore he said unto them: Ye have spoken the words that I desired; and the covenant which ye have made is a righteous covenant.
7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.
9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.


Alma 34:

8 And now, behold, I will testify unto you of myself that these things are true. Behold, I say unto you, that I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world; for the Lord God hath spoken it.
9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.
10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another...
12 ... therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.
13 .... then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away.
14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.
15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.
16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption.


Helaman 5:

12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.


3 Nephi 11:

1 And now it came to pass that there were a great multitude gathered together, of the people of Nephi, round about the temple which was in the land Bountiful; and they were marveling and wondering one with another, and were showing one to another the great and marvelous change which had taken place.
2 And they were also conversing about this Jesus Christ, of whom the sign had been given concerning his death.
3 And it came to pass that while they were thus conversing one with another, they heard a voice as if it came out of heaven; and they cast their eyes round about, for they understood not the voice which they heard; and it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a small voice it did pierce them that did hear to the center, insomuch that there was no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake; yea, it did pierce them to the very soul, and did cause their hearts to burn.
4 And it came to pass that again they heard the voice, and they understood it not.
5 And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did open their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came.
6 And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them:
7 Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.
8 And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.
9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:
10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.
11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.
12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.
13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:
14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.


Ether 12:

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

Ether 12:

41 And now, I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you forever. Amen.

[twin.spin]

aaron,
will try to get to get some answers tomorrow - 4/17
twin.