Book of Mormon / KJV Bible contradictions (some) (woman, preach, believing)
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i will use the first epistle of paul to the corinthians as an example, since we have the second and third, which we call first and second. would you think it important to have that epistle? would you like to know what an inspired servant of the Lord found important enough to write to one of His churches?
Aaron,
Concerning this "first" first epistle. I know not of what you're referring to nor have read any such claims about a authentic letter may even exists that has not been included for consideration as an inspired work.
Would I be interested in reading a letter from the Apostle Paul (that can be authenticated as his), who wouldn't. But that doesn't automatically make it a part of Gods Word.
Through out the ages, God has expected that the way to know what is truthful and was to compare it to the scriptures. If this "first" Epistle is not in keeping with the OT and with other known gospels and epistles from the NT it isn't inspired. This may even be said with comparing the as you call the "second and third". God warns about how to know the standard for truthfulness.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-11: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. This is why the the Bereans compared what Paul was preaching to the scriptures.
I'm sure this "first" Epistle has been theologically been studied with a fine tooth comb. If it hasn't been added by now, there is a reason for it. Most likely it didn't agree with the OT.
my point was not that anything written by one of the historic prophets is automatically scripture. we don't believe that in the mormon church either. my point was that it should at least make you pause and reconsider. i would bet my recently bought house that many of the writings of the prophets that we don't have, from adam onward, were inspired.
not to mention the fact that i have a hard time reconciling the idea that protestants declare catholicism to be a dead branch, and yet follow the councils that the catholic church utilized to declare doctrines such as the trinity, and which scriptures should or should not be included in the soon-to-be bible.
my point was merely that it is really not so incredulous to think that there might be more out there that God wants us to realize. certainly not any more incredulous than to extrapolate predestination, and the various other beliefs that have somehow made their way into modern christianity.
my point was not that anything written by one of the historic prophets is automatically scripture. we don't believe that in the mormon church either. my point was that it should at least make you pause and reconsider. i would bet my recently bought house that many of the writings of the prophets that we don't have, from adam onward, were inspired.
I suppose if "prophet" is used in a very loose way, Adam thru Noah could be considered if a "prophet" had direct verbal communication with God. But since Jesus only points out that they "have Moses and the prophets" would indicate that the "prophets" start with Moses. It also would indicate that the books that exsisted (the Hebrew canon) was accepted as closed, there was no more.
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Originally Posted by stycotl
not to mention the fact that i have a hard time reconciling the idea that protestants declare catholicism to be a dead branch, and yet follow the councils that the catholic church utilized to declare doctrines such as the trinity, and which scriptures should or should not be included in the soon-to-be bible.
As I said previously, Jesus himself many times points to the OT Hebrew canon (Moses, psalms, and the prophets). Jesus never infers that other books are needed for further info or required for salvation. In fact that is what is said to those who don't believe and find themselves immediately after death in "outer darkness" (hell) ....Abraham said "They have Moses and the prophets" Luke 16:19-31. This would be a closed canon.
About the protestant\catholicism thing.
Could you explain the phrase "a dead branch" in the context of a protestant declaration and how you're interpeting that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stycotl
my point was merely that it is really not so incredulous to think that there might be more out there that God wants us to realize. certainly not any more incredulous than to extrapolate predestination, and the various other beliefs that have somehow made their way into modern christianity.
I'm not sure in what tone you mean this. My answer would depend on what you what me to focus in on... especially the second sentence.
To help me understand from where you are coming from
What other beliefs besides predestination do you think have made their way into modern christianity that would cause for the need to find more out there?
What is your understanding of "predestination"?
From what century is considered modern?
i don't understand how you are accepting the ot as closed, since we have the nt that directly follows it.
the dead branch comment referred to my understanding that protestants believe the catholic church to be uninspired, not under the influence of the Spirit of God. as far as i was aware, this is acurate.
predestination is the act by which some believe God to have already chosen who will be saved and who will not. basically, it does not matter what you do in life, if you were not one of the chosen to begin with.
modern christianity refers to the general state of christianity today. it does not speak of in ages past, though there is direct correlation.
At the time in Jesus' day, there was no NT written. If there was anybody who would have known if there was more to the OT, it would have been Jesus. Yet, Jesus only refers to Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy aka the Law) the Psalms (the OT hymnal -majority written by King David, some are attributed to Solomon, some is ascribed to the family of Asaph, to the sons of Korah, one to Heman, Ethan the Ezrahite and Moses) and the Prophets.
I accept the OT being closed in Jesus' day because this was the example that Jesus used in confronting those who didn't believe in him and to the condemned, he referd to Moses (the law), Psalms and the Prophets.
As far as the protestant\catholics issue, I understand know your position. May address that, but not here.
Predestination is very clearly taught in the Bible.
When did predestination take place? Ephesians 1:4-5 (KJV) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
God chosing us (some) Luke 18:7 "And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones" Acts 22:14 "Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth" Romans 8:33 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies" 1 Corinthians 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
I would encourage you to inwardly digest the Bible. Read it and pray for wisdom.
As a former LDS man wrote, " I suddenly saw things so plainly that I struggled to see before. There were two [Bible] verses that really stood out to me. Romans 5:21 'just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' Romans 6:23 'For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.' The free gift of God is eternal life......AND ITS FREE!!! ............. I would always thought, if thats true, why doesn't the Bible just say it like that? Guess what? IT DOES!!......."
At the time in Jesus' day, there was no NT written. If there was anybody who would have known if there was more to the OT, it would have been Jesus. Yet, Jesus only refers to Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy aka the Law) the Psalms (the OT hymnal -majority written by King David, some are attributed to Solomon, some is ascribed to the family of Asaph, to the sons of Korah, one to Heman, Ethan the Ezrahite and Moses) and the Prophets.
I accept the OT being closed in Jesus' day because this was the example that Jesus used in confronting those who didn't believe in him and to the condemned, he referd to Moses (the law), Psalms and the Prophets.
so you don't accept isaiah, jeremiah, and the rest? just moses' 5, and psalms?
EDIT: ok, my bad. i caught these two, but didn't see you post the prophets. all i am saying is that this in no way creates a full-preterist lockdown of revelation. saying that the bible clearly, irrefutably states that revelation is done, and inspired scripture is done is like saying that predestination is irrefutably stated as well, when it isn't, as i mention below. no matter how much you want to believe that it is, it isn't. there is so much that also points directly to free will, that the debate has gone on for longer than i can count. it is not irrefutable. every man has his own idea as to what the scriptures mean, and every one of them seems to enjoy quoting ad nauseum the same scriptures that support his way of life, while completely disregarding the rest. that hardly sounds open-and-closed to me.
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May address that, but not here.
ok; it relates directly to the conversation, but if you would rather post it somewhere else, that's ok. i would like to know though.
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Predestination is very clearly taught in the Bible.
this is not one of the beliefs that is even accepted by the majority of 'mainstream' christianity. it is accepted by a lot of the, true, but there is plenty of debate as to the validity of free will as opposed to predestination.
At the time in Jesus' day, there was no NT written. If there was anybody who would have known if there was more to the OT, it would have been Jesus. Yet, Jesus only refers to Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy aka the Law) the Psalms (the OT hymnal -majority written by King David, some are attributed to Solomon, some is ascribed to the family of Asaph, to the sons of Korah, one to Heman, Ethan the Ezrahite and Moses) and the Prophets.
I accept the OT being closed in Jesus' day because this was the example that Jesus used in confronting those who didn't believe in him and to the condemned, he referd to Moses (the law), Psalms and the Prophets.
As far as the protestant\catholics issue, I understand know your position. May address that, but not here.
Predestination is very clearly taught in the Bible.
When did predestination take place? Ephesians 1:4-5 (KJV) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 1 Peter 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
God chosing us (some) Luke 18:7 "And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones" Acts 22:14 "Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth" Romans 8:33 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies" 1 Corinthians 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
I would encourage you to inwardly digest the Bible. Read it and pray for wisdom.
As a former LDS man wrote, " I suddenly saw things so plainly that I struggled to see before. There were two [Bible] verses that really stood out to me. Romans 5:21 'just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.' Romans 6:23 'For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.' The free gift of God is eternal life......AND ITS FREE!!! ............. I would always thought, if thats true, why doesn't the Bible just say it like that? Guess what? IT DOES!!......."
If by 'predestined' you mean we have no choice in whether we are saved or not, I definitely disagree. If you mean we are 'predestined' to be saved by our obedience to the gospel, I agree.
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