Book of Mormon / KJV Bible contradictions (some) (tradition, believers, pray)

[twin.spin]

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Originally Posted by stycotl

i am still very interested in hearing the responses to these questions (post 99), and the rest of them that i have brought up. my desire does not come from a need to argue or anything, just to understand from where you and the rest of mainstream Christianity come from with regard to these issues.

Aaron, many questions. I hope to make this as brief as possible, but may get long winded....sorry.
Not to be technical, I would not be considered "mainstream" Christian. So my view will be considered incorrect by the mainstream. I belong to a Evangelical Lutheran Church - specifically Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS). If you want to read what WELS and the Bible teaches, go to The Bible and Lutherans - Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) (http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2601&collectionID=789 - broken link)

Originally Posted by stycotl

again, we agree. Christ fulfilled the law. all of it. period. but obviously revelation did not stop, and was not fulfilled.

I not sure I can say we agree when you said this. Take the "but obviously" part out then I might. The "Revelation" to Paul was much different subject matter than it was to John on Patmos (Revelation-the last book in the Bible).

Paul's was a conversion to faith, not a restoration of the truth. Paul almost exclusively writes on this theme: By faith alone, not works, not by observing the law. He is sent to the Gentiles.

John's "revelation" is to the established churches. It (the revelation) is in 2 parts (Rev 1-3, and 4-22) Most forget that 4-22 was for the benefit and comfort of the churches of Chapters 1-3 (Rev 22:16), not just for those 2000 years later.
4-22 message is that Jesus who is God (Rev 22:13) knows the past, present and future events, is in control of all events, and has won the battle! All means all, It is fulfilled, accomplished, complete in entirety. No more requirements, no more laws, no more payment of sins, Heavenly Father is completely satisfied. We owe nobody nothing, heaven is free by faith.

"Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. Rev 22:17
Those who hear, believe in heaven being free.
(I may just share a story with you [that I read] about a young Mormon's journey to the Christian faith. Going from "do all you can do" to "let him take the free gift"

Originally Posted by stycotl

what i asked you, a few posts ago, had to do with this. do you really suppose that after Christ's final ascension in the nt, revelation stopped? i would like to see how you view paul, john, and all the rest. do you believe them to be prophetic? did they receive revelation? if so, how did Christ's ascension terminate revelation. if not, how do you reconcile their books being included in the bible?

Christ's ascension terminated the need to re-establish the truth. By inferring the truth would need to be established again...would mean that Jesus' word and work "failed to never pass away". The truth of Gods word was\is still present from Jesus' day till now.

Originally Posted by stycotl

i also asked what would it mean to you if we unearthed the rest of the biblical writings that were not included (by the supposed wisdom of man) in our current bible. would you deny the validity of the rest of the books of the apostles, or even of moses, adam, and the rest, just because they were not included in our current version of the holy bible, which was compiled many years after Christ and His atonement and ascension into heaven?

My reaction would be to deny the validity of the unearthed book.
If any "book" is found, the first order of business is to compare it to what has been already revealed. Since obviously Jesus' words "never passed away in the first place", I would be skeptical to any "revelations" claiming to have the lost words\book or "truth from God", or a "revelation" from Gods "prophet" or angel. You need to have that as a premise of an opinion -a mindset that something else is out there, that something is missing from the Bible for a book to be added or considered "another testament".

Aaron, my friend hear the offer while you are able;

"Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life!

[Towhee]

"Seeing that His divine power has granted unto us everything pretaining to life and godliness" 2nd Peter 1:3 . What else could be needed? This was written long before JS !

[Towhee]

2nd Peter 1:3 :" Seeing that His devine power has granted to us everything pretaining to life and godliness,"
What else could be needed?
This was written by Peter LONG before JS!

[Towhee]

OOPS!
I didn't think the first was posted. I haven't learned the ways of this foum yet.....:-(

[moonsavvy]

Originally Posted by JNHarris

Moonsavvy,

Hopefully, I can best answer your first question, at least speaking for myself, by sharing a few passages from this precious book with you.


1 Nephi 15:

23 And they said unto me: What meaneth the rod of iron which our father saw, that led to the tree [of life]?
24 And I said unto them that it was the word of God; and whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would never perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead them away to destruction.


2 Nephi 2:

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth....
8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.


Jacob 4:

3 .... and we labor diligently to engraven these words upon plates, hoping that our beloved brethren and our children will receive them with thankful hearts, and look upon them that they may learn with joy and not with sorrow, neither with contempt, concerning their first parents.
4 For, for this intent have we written these things, that they may know that we knew of Christ, and we had a hope of his glory many hundred years before his coming; and not only we ourselves had a hope of his glory, but also all the holy prophets which were before us.
5 Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law of Moses, it pointing our souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son Isaac, which is a similitude of God and his Only Begotten Son.


Mosiah 5:

2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.
3 And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things.
4 And it is the faith which we have had on the things which our king has spoken unto us that has brought us to this great knowledge, whereby we do rejoice with such exceedingly great joy.
5 And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days.....
6 And now, these are the words which king Benjamin desired of them; and therefore he said unto them: Ye have spoken the words that I desired; and the covenant which ye have made is a righteous covenant.
7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.
9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.


Alma 34:

8 And now, behold, I will testify unto you of myself that these things are true. Behold, I say unto you, that I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world; for the Lord God hath spoken it.
9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.
10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another...
12 ... therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.
13 .... then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away.
14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.
15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.
16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption.


Helaman 5:

12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.


3 Nephi 11:

1 And now it came to pass that there were a great multitude gathered together, of the people of Nephi, round about the temple which was in the land Bountiful; and they were marveling and wondering one with another, and were showing one to another the great and marvelous change which had taken place.
2 And they were also conversing about this Jesus Christ, of whom the sign had been given concerning his death.
3 And it came to pass that while they were thus conversing one with another, they heard a voice as if it came out of heaven; and they cast their eyes round about, for they understood not the voice which they heard; and it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a small voice it did pierce them that did hear to the center, insomuch that there was no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake; yea, it did pierce them to the very soul, and did cause their hearts to burn.
4 And it came to pass that again they heard the voice, and they understood it not.
5 And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did open their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came.
6 And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them:
7 Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.
8 And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.
9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:
10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.
11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.
12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.
13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:
14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.


Ether 12:

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

Ether 12:

41 And now, I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you forever. Amen.

While I appreciate the time and effort you took to write this post, it still leaves much to be discussed. Like I said, I have a book of mormon, I've read it and studied it. I did not find the enlightenment from it that I have found from so many others. So to just copy and paste a few verses from the book doesn't really answer my question.

Why is it so special, what's the sacredness of it, how does it increase your awareness of the Divine?

[JNHarris]

Originally Posted by moonsavvy

While I appreciate the time and effort you took to write this post, it still leaves much to be discussed.

That's fine.

Like I said, I have a book of mormon, I've read it and studied it.

I think you said that you didn't get much out of it other than a bunch of stories. I and millions of others get more out of it than this. Granted, I think unfortunately, there are some who don't see in it much more than the events though. In sharing the passages above, it was in part my hope that you would see that there are millions whom glean from the Book of Mormon much more than a narrative summary.

I did not find the enlightenment from it that I have found from so many others.

What others are you refering to?

So to just copy and paste a few verses from the book doesn't really answer my question.

It was my hope that if you read and pondered the passages above, rather than just knowing what I thought, you might actually experience to a certain degree (granted just a few verses can't give one the full experience as reading the entire volume) what I have experienced while reading this sacred book, and thus know far better what I think and feel than if I just told you outright.

Why is it so special, what's the sacredness of it,

It contains the Words of God, supports the Bible and fortifies the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

how does it increase your awareness of the Divine?

This is a little hard to explain. However, when I read the Book of Mormon, in a pondering and prayerful attitude, as when I read the Bible, I feel closer to Christ, feel a desire to follow Him and feel His love for me.

[moonsavvy]

Originally Posted by JNHarris

This is a little hard to explain. However, when I read the Book of Mormon, in a pondering and prayerful attitude, as when I read the Bible, I feel closer to Christ, feel a desire to follow Him and feel His love for me.

Ok this makes sense. Now I can feel the passion you have for it. I feel that same way with other books that I've read, but won't mention here due to the fact that it is not relevant. Lots of Blessings on your path!

[stycotl]

My reaction would be to deny the validity of the unearthed book.
If any "book" is found, the first order of business is to compare it to what has been already revealed. Since obviously Jesus' words "never passed away in the first place", I would be skeptical to any "revelations" claiming to have the lost words\book or "truth from God", or a "revelation" from Gods "prophet" or angel. You need to have that as a premise of an opinion -a mindset that something else is out there, that something is missing from the Bible for a book to be added or considered "another testament".

so does this mean that you don't believe that anything was ever taken away from the scriptures in order to get to the present compilation that we have now, or that you believe stuff was taken away, but obviously wasn't divine inspiration?

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by stycotl

so does this mean that you don't believe that anything was ever taken away from the scriptures in order to get to the present compilation that we have now, or that you believe stuff was taken away, but obviously wasn't divine inspiration?

I not sure about the second half of your question is asking.
I guess it depends what you mean by "anything".

From a pure transcribal perspective, the Bible until the printing press was hand copied from the time the originals books were written. The dead sea scrolls contained all the Hebrew O.T. cannon excluding the book of Esther, Isaiah scroll was complete dating back to @ 100 B.C.
The Bible (KJV) was written word for word compared to the Isaiah dead sea scroll(with few minor exceptions). It is not unreasonable to believe that the rest of the Bible (N.T.) would have been given as much skill and care.

But if your position is that the Bible is missing something or other revelations are forth coming, no generation will ever be certian of absolutes. At best, this is a sinking sand of faith, especially when a new revelation reverses a long held belief or practice. But the Bible have one Author (2 Peter 1:20-22 2 Timothy 3:16 etc.). If Scripture is the Word of God—as it claims for itself repeatedly—and if God is one, there is no reason at all that truth can’t be one, too.

[stycotl]

no, i agree that there is only one truth out there. that wasn't my point. my point was that we have fairly accurate proof, even just reading the bible itself, that there used to be a lot more there. sure, at the time of the dead sea scrolls, it might have been similar to its current compilation, but that still leaves a lot to be questioned.

i will use the first epistle of paul to the corinthians as an example, since we have the second and third, which we call first and second. would you think it important to have that epistle? would you like to know what an inspired servant of the Lord found important enough to write to one of His churches?

i would.

do i think that this detracts from the bible? no. it just means that there is still stuff out there that we have yet to be acquainted with.

the basis of salvation is laid out very plainly in the bible. but even with that, there are almost 100,000 differing christian sects just in the usa alone that each believe the bible to be saying something entirely different than their neighbor. almost 100,000 interpretations of the same singular truth.

granted, the majority of those differing interpretations are very small indeed. but we're still trying to add complex equations with truckloads of variables, changing things as we see fit and as we decide was originally intended, and hoping to come up with the same answer that God had intended for us the entire time.