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About a year or so ago you asked me to translate this for you:
εἰσέλθετε εἰς ἀγορὰν δῶρα παρά γε τῶν ἀδικούντων ληφόμενοι
I said I would if you would translate this passage properly:
Mat 25:46 και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον
You totally botched the translation. A deal is a deal.
No, I gave you a perfectly accurate translation, you just insisted that I was wrong because αιωνιον didn't mean "eternal." That's laughably begging the question.
No, I gave you a perfectly accurate translation, you just insisted that I was wrong because αιωνιον didn't mean "eternal." That's laughably begging the question.
We have proven time after time that αιωνιον was not used by ancient people, as shown by extra biblical sources, to mean the popularly accepted idea of "eternal." And we have proven by laws of grammar it cannot mean eternal. Face it, you bungled the translation miserably.
The oldest lexicographer, Hesychius, (A. D. 400-600,) defines aión thus: "The life of man, the time of life." At this early date no theologian had yet imported into the word the meaning of endless duration. It retained only the sense it had in the classics, and in the Bible.
I will also repost this. Remember you said they can't be correct because they are dead?
Elliot’s Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46(. Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios—it must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).
Hasting’s Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting—nonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370):
The chronoios aioniois moreover, are not to be thought of as stretching backward everlastingly, as it is proved by the pro chronon aionion of II Tim. 1:9; Titus. 1:2. (Note: pro chronon aionion means "BEFORE times eonian." Since this Scripture tells us that there was time "before" eonian, eionian cannot possibly mean eternal, for nothing can be "before" eternity.)
The large Catholic Bible dictionary, The Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible (p. 693): ETERNITY: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in the philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8; etc.) or with various prepositions (Gen. 3:22; etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated as ‘forever,’ means in itself no more than ‘for an indefinitely long period." Thus me olam does not mean ‘from eternity’ but ‘of old’ Gen. 6:4; etc.). In the N.T. aion is used as the equivalent of olam.
Dr. R. F. Weymouth, a translator who was adept in Greek, states in The New Testament in Modern Speech (p. 657), Eternal, Greek aeonion, i.e., of the ages: Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed does not signify, "during" but "belonging to" the aeons or ages.
Dr. Marvin Vincent, Word Studies of the New Testament (Vol. IV, p. 59). The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective in themselves carries the sense of "endless" or "everlasting.’ Anionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.
Dr. F. W. Farrar, author of The Life of Christ and The Life and Word of St. Paul, as well as books about Greek grammar and syntax, writes in The Eternal Hope (p. 198), "That the adjective is applied to some things which are ‘endless’ does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant ‘endless;’ and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd."
We have proven time after time that αιωνιον was not used by ancient people, as shown by extra biblical sources, to mean the popularly accepted idea of "eternal."
No, you've asserted it and cherry-picked some discrete usages from specific sources. I provided several examples of usages with explanations that show unequivocally that a notion of eternity is clearly in view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
And we have proven by laws of grammar it cannot mean eternal.
No, you've imagined a single law of grammar that you cannot defend in any way whatsoever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Face it, you bungled the translation miserably.
No, I did no such thing. You were demonstrably begging the question, and instead of addressing that, you're just making up more assertions. I've addressed all this before and you've never responded adequately. You don't know any Greek at all and you've got no leg to stand on. That's my last word on this joke of an argument.
So in other word you are saying Jesus did not pay the wages of sin, or the wages of sin is not the second death. You cannot have it both ways
The wages of sin is not the second death. It is Adamic death from which a resurrection is possible because Jesus paid that price. The second death has no resurrection.
Give a scripture and explain why it must mean eternal? You guys can't seem to give me even one scripture, why is that? You can qoute a the lexicon and dictonaries you like, but the Jew of old did not understand olam to mean eternal and did not understand Gehenna to be eternal. Thus in context when Jesus was speaking to the Jews He would have used language as they understood it. Gehenna to the Jewish mind is up to a 12 months of purification, and the Jews still maintain that belief today.
Kind of undoes all you lexicon and dictonary stuff does it not.
Your ancient source for this, not modern Jewry????
11-10-2014, 05:13 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
why cannot it mean what it says, "into/unto the age"?
Can you supply the scripture that speaks of Gods age? thanks
I never said it could not mean that - it is you who is trying to limit the usage of that phrase not me. I gave the usage and context that allowed an expansion of meaning (semantic domain) and you ignored it. I gave the passages in Hebrews chapter 5, 7, and 10 - which quoted Ps.110, which uses olam, and you did not respond. I showed that the phrase 'into/unto the age' had a synonymous phrase in Hebrews 10 - and you did not respond to that either. Again the context and usage tells us what the meaning/s are not some prescriptive definition. The context and usage of the phrase and its synonym demand a meaning beyond what you are telling us.
I gave you the 'concept' of God's age - that time when he will reign forever and ever that is clearly in view in many passages in the Bible - not that it says or uses the term 'age.' It is this concept that is associated with the phrase 'into/unto the age' and the other phrases in Hebrews 7 and 10 that give it its meaning.
I am not an expert in languages. But I know enouph Hebrew that "leolam vaed" has the meaning of a world (age) without end = eternity. Laad is biblical Hebrew and means eternity. The word "od" = further comes from it, but the original meaning is without end. When a Jew speaks about the afterlife he says "Haolam haba" and he knows, that is a world without end=eternity. I know that the word "olam" tells us about a time in the past or the future "meolam" or "leolam" and time has usual a beginning and an end. But forever and ever is eternal, in Hebrew and also in Greek, it is the eternal God and so is His life etc. This is shown to you Ur folks again and again and you have no excuse, even an atheist told you, he is not biased, but neutral. But you say, Jesus payed the panalty of sin. That is right, but the bible tells us, that we cannot sin because of it, sin is still the cause of death, natural and spiritual. God is still the judge, and there is still sin to death, the bible is very clear of it. Now comes your argument that all will be saved. But the bible tells us that salvation is conditional (John 3:16) They that do not believe will perish. Shana is right, without Christ resurrection we would all perish, inspite Jesus sacrifice. Why you cannot see that faith in Christ is also nessasary for not perishing? That means "all" are they that believe and turn to the mighty God (Jesus). That is what all Israel will be saved means, a remnant that turns (converts) to the Mighty God (el gibor), we find in Isa 10:21; 9:6. The gospel of Jesus Christ is preached, that the Kingdom of God is at hand and all the world has to turn to the mighty God of Israel to be saved. Why should missionaries risk their lifes to save people? Why would Paul say that he would rather be blotted out of the book of life (as Moses asked), to save some Jews? In this light, Universalism makes no sense and is unbiblical.
Hi Zur... just thought i would make a short response to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur
...Now comes your argument that all will be saved. But the bible tells us that salvation is conditional (John 3:16)
Agreed
Quote:
They that do not believe will perish. Shana is right, without Christ resurrection we would all perish, inspite Jesus sacrifice.
Agreed
Quote:
Why you cannot see that faith in Christ is also nessasary for not perishing?
Agreed. But I would add that faith can also save you after you have perished. All who sin are already spiritually dead and perished. Jesus came to save those who are apollumi [lost/dead/perished].
Quote:
That means "all" are they that believe and turn to the mighty God (Jesus).
Here is where I disagree Zur. It means all WILL believe and turn to the mighty God. Here is one reason I believe this:
Psalm 22:27-29
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and
All the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship:
All they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
How many go down to the dust? All without exception.
Quote:
That is what all Israel will be saved means, a remnant that turns (converts) to the Mighty God (el gibor), we find in Isa 10:21; 9:6.
In Romans 11 "Israel" does not refer to all who believe. "Israel" is divided into two groups in that chapter: (1) the elect/remnant (who believe) and (2) the enemies of the gospel (who don't believe) who are cut off. Nevertheless, it says "all Israel will be saved". Will they be saved in unbelief? No, of course not. They will "remember and turn to the Lord".
Quote:
The gospel of Jesus Christ is preached, that the Kingdom of God is at hand and all the world has to turn to the mighty God of Israel to be saved.
Agreed
Quote:
Why should missionaries risk their lifes to save people? Why would Paul say that he would rather be blotted out of the book of life (as Moses asked), to save some Jews? In this light, Universalism makes no sense and is unbiblical.
It makes sense if you understand that there is no automatic ticket salvation. Everyone has to repent and obey the gospel.
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